The Official Salomon S/Lab SHIFT MNC Thread -AMA

remember to put your hand inside the boot and press the top part slight backwards as you adjust the AFD so that the front lug on the boot is seated in the proper position in the toe / binding.

(Also, that link is the #1 hit on Google with the search "shift afd forward pressure" ;) Crazy I know.)

I've kinda lost track over how many times those two questions + brake widths have been discussed now. Is it an idea if this thread is retired, and a new one is created with all the current info in the first post? Preferably by somebody who have a vested interest in selling the binding and as such are continuously up to date on the latest info, intermittently updates the first post and also have access to spare part info etc. Such a post should include (but not be limited to):

weights: 885 (din 13), 875 (din 10)
brake widths: 90, 100, 110, 120 mm
actual brake widths: +8mm
adjustment range: rear binding 30mm, jig/Knut's template put you at -18/+12
Elastic Travel, Toe/Heel: 47/9 mm
Climbing Riser Angles: 2° (flat) and 10° (depending on BSL)
Differences in din 10 vs din 13 versions: no other than the springs, hence the slightly lighter weight
din 13+ version: not possible due to tolerances, stiffer spring will not fit
setup guide: slightly more forward pressure, heel din and AFD height than the manual says is recommended as described here https://www.newschoolers.com/news/re...n-Issues-Fixes
link to this thread: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...90#post5186790
walk mode fix: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...31#post6203131
walk mod engagement: best practice, use hands to get firm clicks, not stomp
swap 10 for 13 toe (or vice versa): you only need to unscrew the two middle toe screws on the toe, the two hind most and its plastic piece and the one with the nub can remain on the ski. The rail can remain on the ski - the 10 and 13 versions uses the same rails, hardware and brakes
second riser mod: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...75#post5622475
differences between Armada, Atomic and Salomon versions: only coloring

What did I leave out?

And as I have mentioned previously in this thread, I find it strange that Amer have not updated their manual to be even more specific and unambiguous considering how sensitive this binding can be to correct settings.

The jig puts you at -18/+12 afaik.

sweet/my bad - thanks for the clarification banzai.

If mags think the new thread idea is a terrible one, that is fine. The above post can be a bit of a sumarization post instead then :)

-18/+12, what does it means ? With a 300 mount I can go from 282 to 312 ? Or from 288 to 318 ?

282 to 312.
Source: @spyderjon https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...66#post6155366

I’ve been using this year’s Salomon Shift 13, swapping between my hill and touring boots. I read everything I could find, but found setting the AFD correctly has been a learning curve, and I still won’t ski them without carrying a tool. Everything has worked flawlessly when touring, though I still find them heavy, and I’ll always take out my lighter setup for dedicated touring days. Still as a binding that does double duty, for inbounds charging on my powder skis, and for days where I want to mix it up between the hill and the local side-country, I’m pretty happy with them.

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Originally Posted by banzai

282 to 312.
Source: @spyderjon https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...66#post6155366

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Well, I can fit my friends 315mm boot in my 301mm shop mounted shift, and there is still some room ... If that was the case it should go to 313mm max.
It seems that on mine it’s +15 / -15.
That being said, I didn’t gave my boot to the shop, I just told them to mount at 301mm. So maybe they did things differently, idk.

My shifts feel like the have a ton of ramp angleand I am falling forward. But measuring the same boot in my pivot15 and shift, the delta is near identical. I ski in hawx xtd with shift and Doberman’s with the pivot.

Maybe it’s the boot board in the hawx. I have previously ground down the heel of the boot board in the hawx to level it out. The top of the boot board on the heel is the same height. I can’t measure the toe though.

The hawx feels more forward standing on the floor. But it should feel high in the toes with the rockered sole being thicker.

The hawx feel flatter on wardens.

I was about to put shims under my shift toes but now I’m confused. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by kalisto

For those with brakes unclipping and sliding off the track. Was the mount for your BSL? Curious if the position of the heel along the track increases the likelihood of this happening?

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Yes. Mounted for my 306 BSL. Same deal and same exact BSL for my friend with the same issue.

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

My shifts feel like the have a ton of ramp angleand I am falling forward. But measuring the same boot in my pivot15 and shift, the delta is near identical. I ski in hawx xtd with shift and Doberman’s with the pivot.

Maybe it’s the boot board in the hawx. I have previously ground down the heel of the boot board in the hawx to level it out. The top of the boot board on the heel is the same height. I can’t measure the toe though.

The hawx feels more forward standing on the floor. But it should feel high in the toes with the rockered sole being thicker.

The hawx feel flatter on wardens.

I was about to put shims under my shift toes but now I’m confused. Thoughts?

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I bet your Hawx are way different than your Dobis and pivots.
I take the liners out of my boots, place them on my flat bench, and put a combination square flat on the boot board and my iPhone level on the flat part of the ruler. That way I can accuracy measure the boot board angle.
I'm sensitive to ramp angle, this measurement allows me to shim my touring skis and boot combo to match my alpine ski/boot combo.
I made a quick drawing to better explain my measuring process.
Attachment 361657

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Originally Posted by Dee Hubbs

I bet your Hawx are way different than your Dobis and pivots.
I take the liners out of my boots, place them on my flat bench, and put a combination square flat on the boot board and my iPhone level on the flat part of the ruler. That way I can accuracy measure the boot board angle.
I'm sensitive to ramp angle, this measurement allows me to shim my touring skis and boot combo to match my alpine ski/boot combo.
I made a quick drawing to better explain my measuring process.
Attachment 361657

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Thanks. The issue is the boot boards aren’t flat anymore. That’s a good idea. With the stepped boot boards, it’s hard to get any sort of consistently measurement. But I think you’re right, the toe of the hawx is probably super low inside the boot. If you’re mixing up boot sense with different soles, i assume you would do this test with them in a binding, preferably one with an adjustable afd rather than an adjustable toe piece.

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

My shifts feel like the have a ton of ramp angleand I am falling forward. But measuring the same boot in my pivot15 and shift, the delta is near identical. I ski in hawx xtd with shift and Doberman’s with the pivot.

Maybe it’s the boot board in the hawx. I have previously ground down the heel of the boot board in the hawx to level it out. The top of the boot board on the heel is the same height. I can’t measure the toe though.

The hawx feels more forward standing on the floor. But it should feel high in the toes with the rockered sole being thicker.

The hawx feel flatter on wardens.

I was about to put shims under my shift toes but now I’m confused. Thoughts?

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There are two issues here.
The Warden has 3mm delta and adjusts for thicker soles but raising the toe for thicker soles. The Shift has close to 8mm of Delta and adjusts for thicker soles by lowering the AFD which makes the problem worse. So between the 8 mm and lowering the AFD I had to use almost 1/2" with the WTR XTD and the Shift. And it Still was a problem for me. Note I like my alpine setups flat with standard Alpine soles. With my Shifts I ended up with a Rox R3 with the Alpine Din soles and a 6mm shim under the toes and am happy as a clam.

Then there is The Hawx Ultra family. I also have spent time standing around in the Standard Ultra and get the same over flexed quad burning feel on a flat floor.
I've been baffled by this for years as the shop I work part time at sells lots of these boots. When a coworker told me he had the same issue, I started looking at the boot harder. As you've found out its not a boot board issue. If you look closely at the external heel area, it seems to me the outsole of the boot has a 6ish mm heel lift compared the the toe area. If you line Ultra up next to your Dobies, it should be visible. I may be a complete kook, but this is the best I've been able ti figure out

So despite the fact that it fits me well and is a killer boot, The Ultras just don't work for me.

As an aside, after a lot of research, the reason why peoples needs for different binding delta are the tibia to femur ratio. If you have a proportionally longer femur, you will be better balanced on a binding with higher delta. If you tibia is proportionally longer than your femur, a flatter delta will provide better balance.

There also may be a relationship of foot length to tibia length and lower leg length to torso length that affects this feel of binding delta, but I have not been able to find anything definitive on these factors.

Boot board ramp angle and forward lean needs are determined by ankle joint dorsiflexion range of motion.

The Skimoves guy David MacPhail had a nifty ramp angle tool he made. It was two equal length rods on a a flat bar that would touch the heel and forefoot and then measure the angle on top of the bar. Need a boot spreader though to use it.

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Originally Posted by turnfarmer

......The Shift has close to 8mm of Delta and adjusts for thicker soles by lowering the AFD which makes the problem worse. ...........With my Shifts I ended up with a Rox R3 with the Alpine Din soles and a 6mm shim under the toes and am happy as a clam........

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:confused: Shifts have 2mm of delta with the AFD set for an alpine sole and with the AFD fully lowered it's 8/9mm for most AT soles on the market.

I'm rocking Mercury's with the AFD virtually fully down and a 6mm toe shim to give 2mm of delta. Unless there's something weird about the Rox din soles a 6mm toe shim is going to give you negative delta.

I totally bow to Spyderjon’s superior knowledge.
I’m going from memory on shift delta. Someone told me shift delta was 8mm and it stuck I’m my head as Alpine. Sorry to spread disinformation.

Also going on memory of shim height. I’ll remeasure later.

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

:confused: Shifts have 2mm of delta with the AFD set for an alpine sole and with the AFD fully lowered it's 8/9mm for most AT soles on the market.

I'm rocking Mercury's with the AFD virtually fully down and a 6mm toe shim to give 2mm of delta. Unless there's something weird about the Rox din soles a 6mm toe shim is going to give you negative delta.

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When you measure the delta with the mercuries, are you measuring to the top of the AFD? If so, what relevance does this have on your foot angle since the AFD moves up and down to accommodate the bigger sole, but the boot remains in the same position? For example, take a boot with interchangeable soles. Put alpine soles on in the shift and you have your boot board at ‘X’ angle. Put a thicker sole on and you adjust the AFD downwards to accommodate. This keeps your boot board at the same ‘X’ angle.

A binding that adjusts at the AFD does not change your delta. A binding that moves the toe up and down does.

Am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

When you measure the delta with the mercuries, are you measuring to the top of the AFD? If so, what relevance does this have on your foot angle since the AFD moves up and down to accommodate the bigger sole, but the boot remains in the same position? For example, take a boot with interchangeable soles. Put alpine soles on in the shift and you have your boot board at ‘X’ angle. Put a thicker sole on and you adjust the AFD downwards to accommodate. This keeps your boot board at the same ‘X’ angle.

A binding that adjusts at the AFD does not change your delta. A binding that moves the toe up and down does.

Am I missing something?

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I see your point. But it your XTD has a thicker sole, you will feel delta in the Warden as your thicker toe sits higher off the ski.

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Originally Posted by turnfarmer

I see your point. But it your XTD has a thicker sole, you will feel delta in the Warden as your thicker toe sits higher off the ski.

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That’s the part that fucks with me. So the warden will reduce the delta. Currently the delta of a binding is measured off of the toe and heel lugs of a boot/AFD and heel piece of boot. If those aren’t representative of the actual foot delta because the boot board of the hawx is crazy sloped, than the excessively flat warden plus hawx combo could actually give me a delta similar to the Doberman’s and pivot.

Next test is to do the framing square/ angle finder test on the bootboard while clicked into their respective skis.

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

Next test is to do the framing square/ angle finder test on the bootboard while clicked into their respective skis.

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please report back. i might build up the boot board of my XTDs with gorilla tape. has worked well in the past. also on shifts/XTDs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

When you measure the delta with the mercuries, are you measuring to the top of the AFD? If so, what relevance does this have on your foot angle since the AFD moves up and down to accommodate the bigger sole, but the boot remains in the same position? For example, take a boot with interchangeable soles. Put alpine soles on in the shift and you have your boot board at ‘X’ angle. Put a thicker sole on and you adjust the AFD downwards to accommodate. This keeps your boot board at the same ‘X’ angle.

A binding that adjusts at the AFD does not change your delta. A binding that moves the toe up and down does.

Am I missing something?

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"A binding that adjusts at the AFD does not change your delta. A binding that moves the toe up and down does."

Absolutely correct. I've measured it. My Lupos are at the same angle in the binding regardless of if I'm running a DIN sole or gripwalk sole.

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Originally Posted by jdadour

"A binding that adjusts at the AFD does not change your delta. A binding that moves the toe up and down does."

Absolutely correct. I've measured it. My Lupos are at the same angle in the binding regardless of if I'm running a DIN sole or gripwalk sole.

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That maybe correct for your Lupo's with those soles. If you measure delta correctly, ie comparing the angle of the boot in the binding compared to the same boot when sitting on a horizontal surface, you'll find things can change a lot.

I've got a few pics somewhere that illustrate this so I'll put them in a seperate thread.

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

That maybe correct for your Lupo's with those soles. If you measure delta correctly, ie comparing the angle of the boot in the binding compared to the same boot when sitting on a horizontal surface, you'll find things can change a lot.

I've got a few pics somewhere that illustrate this so I'll put them in a seperate thread.

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But if you do what you say and measure on the floor and then change your soles, the delta will change there too. What we are saying is that you are measuring the angle of the bottom of the sole, not the boot board. I get that if you like how your boot feels standing on your kitchen floor you may try and reproduce this but that just seems silly.

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

But if you do what you say and measure on the floor and then change your soles, the delta will change there too. What we are saying is that you are measuring the angle of the bottom of the sole, not the boot board. I get that if you like how your boot feels standing on your kitchen floor you may try and reproduce this but that just seems silly.

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I get that. I'm talking about delta and not the zeppa/boot board angle nor the forward lean angle of the cuff - they are two different things. The benefit of understanding delta is that if you're happy with your boot set-up (ie zeppa angle and forward lean angle) and you're then happy with the delta angle of that boot in a specific binding then it's easy to replicate (with the use of shims) that same delta with the same boot in a different binding.

Trying to replicate the 'stance' of a Dobi alpine boot in a Pivot with a Hawx (with it's different zeppa angle, forward lean angle and sole profile) is a real nightmare unless you can get yourself on a Neutralizer balancer.

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Originally Posted by Kevo

Alright, another data point- I called back and talked to a different customer service rep. He was aware of the DIN window spare part and is going to send out replacement DIN windows.

He said that there are sometimes other issues besides the DIN window that cause the binding to unlock, so the DIN window isn't a 100% fix.

He also said that he recommended NOT to go through with a warranty request because Salomon is currently sold out of Shifts for the year and won't be able to replace bindings until next season. Fingers crossed on the DIN windows working...

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Following up on my issues with "Salomon Shifts Not Staying Locked in Tour Mode".

Salomon ended up sending me entire replacement toe pieces instead of replacement DIN windows. They are completely sold out for Salomon bindings for the year, so they sent me Armada toe pieces.

I took them to my local shop and had them swapped out today. The black Armada toe pieces go pretty darn well with the black Salomon heal pieces. I have yet to tour in them, so no idea if these will perform better in the wild. Fingers crossed...

Hats off to the second customer service guy I dealt with at Salomon. He was aware of the issues, knew the normal warranty process would leave me without bidings for the season, and stepped up and found a solution.

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Originally Posted by margotron

please report back. i might build up the boot board of my XTDs with gorilla tape. has worked well in the past. also on shifts/XTDs

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To make the boot board of the Hawx XTD in a shift be at the same angle as an old Dobermann in a Pivot you have to shim the toe up 6mm on the shift to make up for a 2 degree difference.

Keep in mind, I've ground my boot board in my Hawx. It is probably within 1 or 2mm of the stock angle. My boot is a 24. My measuring device is not perfect.