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A helmet wouldn’t help at 60 ft. Who doesn’t hold onto the chair with one hand while sweeping snow off the seat with the other? Sounds like user error.Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakofSnow
I love Riblet double chairs. Chair 3 and 4 at Mission are usually fast moving and it keeps the gapers off them.
Snowbowl sounds like they have problems with that lift and are a little lax in the safety department
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One of the best parts about the lift are how they mixed and matched lift towers from its former ski hill.
Some towers look like a normal height, but some are clearly too tall and can have +\- 20 feet of extra tower sticking up from the top.
It’s cool that they managed to do it. But I think sticking with skytrac will be best from here on out. They can/should afford to outsource that work.
Today was real fucking good, Snowpark issues aside. Weird soup though. Garland must be cleaning out the freezer.
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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
too many variables involved with a helmet strike from that height to generalize ....
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Yeah I read that wrong. Still, 25 feet is a long fall for anyone, let alone a 60 yo.Quote:
Originally Posted by MT
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Like I said, Snowbowl's lifts are not idiot proof, but most people seem to be able to get on and off them without breaking them. It's like saying a street is dangerous because an idiot drove the wrong way down a one way. Does it happen often? Then there is a problem with the street/signage. Does it happen once every few years? User error.
Of course, take what my lify housemate says with a grain of salt. He wasn't even there when it happened.
Useful tip for many situations in life: look around at what people are doing, especially if those people really look like they know what they're doing. Then copy that.
Don't get me wrong: there's no love lost between me and the Snowbowl ownership, but I was greatly comforted to learn how much oversight there is by the FS. I also know how to read instructions and sit down and stand up at a give time and place.
And yeah, Snowpark lift is a total kludge. But, again, everyone else gets on and off it just fine.
Based on the number of scrapes and dents on the first lift tower in the picture posted up thread, it would appear that's not actually true.Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn
It's probably Stockholm Syndrome at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by MT
I once joked to someone that the newest things at Snowbowl were the Dewalt toolboxes at the bases of some of the towers where, I think, they keep the evac gear. I think it's always been like that since they got it. Or maybe it was from when they kludge it in wrong the first year?Quote:
Originally Posted by toast2266
IDK man, I've been riding chairlifts a long time and I think I only ever caused a stoppage once. Just.... sit the fuck down. There's no "trick".
"Anyone who has ridden Snow Park chair since it opens knows that the chair often swings violently after it loads and the chairs often bang into one of the first few towers on the way up." Never had that problem. You people are hitting the tower?
A chair should not disintegrate in midair when someone else fucks up. Sorry that's a hard concept for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn
I remember when you passed the bus on the way up and then went full tweaker when you got called out in the lift line, so maybe sit this one out.
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While the plaintiff angry father said that, I expect that the impact was with the halo, or with the halo support, which, since the aforementioned halo bending, is the most likely place for a swinging chair to hit, as it is the closest to the center pole of the chair. A chair would have to be almost completely sideways to be able to reach the lift pole.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackattack
This has been a great storm cycle, I would have mentioned how redonkulously awesome it's been since Friday, but folks seemed so happy talking about the lift. Until this afternoon, the parking lot didn't even get filled.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
Some of the best skiing of the season really.
When you're dealing with public conveyance, not injuring members of the public due to their own stupidity, let alone that of other members of the public, is generally a reasonable expectation.
And, when it comes to loading lifts, sometimes shit happens. I got dumped off a few years back when one of the other coaches I was riding with caught a tip while loading. Chair rocks back unexpectedly and I end up on the ground. Not saying it wasn't a misload, but if three guys who have been coaching ski racing for a decade or more can screw it up, members of the public sure can as well. Lifts should (and usually are) engineered to minimize the risk of harm when that happens.
You remember wrong, so you can STFU and go ski groomers with your kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
If you swing a chair around like it's not designed to do, it can break. Weird how people got on and off thousands of other times without any problems, right? You're another small town know-it-all lawyer, so clearly you can tell us all how we're wrong.
People walk into oncoming traffic all the time, so maybe not?Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherVTskibum
Looks like I missed out on this storm cycle. Sounds like a lot of you got the goods.
Drama aside. The bowl will be fine. It’s good that nobody was seriously hurt, and it’s good that the bowl owners had this shot across their bow. Chairlift safety ain’t no joke.
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Been riding bikes instead of skiing lately but decided to take a quick evening lap today, turned out really nice.
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The latest storm cycle is compliments of me being out of town for two weeks. You're welcome!
I'm coming back this week, hoping for spring conditions for the final week.
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Are people skinning up the closed end of Butler Creek Rd? It kinda looked like that.
There is a yurt down that road that people stay in, and access the area from, sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn
At this point you'd probably be walking for a bit from the gate, but yeah you can get to snowpark and shortcut the road once you get up to where those houses are. 406 does it sometimes when he's in town. Seems kind of far though,
You can go through and out the back of the parking lot though so if I wanted to just go ski snowpark on a day they were closed I'd probably walk back there a bit and then try to get up to 2nd though and skin up along the edge of the boundary.
I have to be in Missoula this week and should be able to skin a quick lap somewhere at sunrise. Is Marshall still the spot for that? Anywhere better?
You can also do a snowbowl/paradise lap before they open. There are some rules about where you can be and when but the main thing is park in the little lot on the right before the main lot and go through the trees to get to the bottom of paradise. There's pretty clear skin track.
https://www.montanasnowbowl.com/safety-and-policies/
awesome, thanks, guys!
WatQuote:
Originally Posted by Rasputin
Seems like a long skin because I understand there's a gate. That's where it turns to the Point 6 Road, right? Never been up that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal
Pretty much, it splits before then where butler creek road goes off to the right and ends at some houses while pt 6 rd keeps going straight and up. Good gravel bike ride loop, doesn't even take that long, can optionally go up tv mtn and stuff. Lavelle is a cool out and back to the edge of the private property too.
Snowpark still not running :(
is it the 'gotta go to know' snow report? how was the bowl been??
Oh, I'm gonna think up a good one for that.
https://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...0f1e7408d.html
The U.S. Forest Service has told Montana Snowbowl that it must address an unsafe chairlift and develop a plan to improve substandard staff response to safety incidents at the ski area north of Missoula.
On Wednesday, the agency sent Snowbowl a notice of non-compliance with the special-use permit that allows it to operate on Lolo National Forest land, according to Missoula District Ranger Crystal Stonesifer. The notice cited deficiencies with the Snow Park chairlift uncovered when a regional ropeway engineer with the Forest Service monitored Snow Park lift operations on March 23. It also cited the failure of Snowbowl lift operators and ski patrol to properly respond to a safety incident on the lift.
The review and subsequent notice followed a March 19 incident in which a chair carrying a 4-year-old boy and his father swung into the first tower on the ride up. The chair seat-back broke off, dumping the child about 15 feet to the ground below. The father, Missoula resident Nathan McLeod, was left clinging to the vertical hanger pole that extends down from the haul cable. He had to jump off moments later.
Snowbowl staff confirmed that a lift operator did not immediately notify other operations staff of the incident. Ski patrol, which has a shack at the top of the lift, didn't respond to the incident until McLeod skied down to the base lodge and told Snowbowl owner Andy Morris what happened. Morris owns and operates the ski area with his father, Brad Morris.
Stonesifer said in an interview Friday that "They (Snowbowl) need to have compliance testing performed on the lift by an independent licensed engineer," and that "We are requesting that they provide a plan to improve their operational capacity and skills related to incident response so that they're in compliance with their annual operating plan."
The Forest Service gave Snowbowl 90 days to complete both tasks. The Forest Service had already ordered Snowbowl to shut down the Snow Park lift after the incident on March 19 and to keep it closed pending investigation.
Chairlift oversight
Chairlifts in the U.S. must adhere to American National Standards Institute (ANSI) B77.1 standards and are inspected before each winter season. But ski areas like Snowbowl that operate on Forest Service land don't have to submit their chairlift inspection reports to the Forest Service. Instead, the ski area simply submits a certificate confirming that a lift was inspected and that any problems were addressed.
The state of Montana used to oversee chairlift safety and operations at ski areas across the state in addition to the Forest Service — until the Legislature abolished the Montana Board of Passenger Tramway Safety in 1997. The Forest Service told legislators at the time that the state board's reports provided much greater insight into lift safety than the certificates from ski areas, which do not detail chairlift issues or how they were remedied.
Stonesifer said that, as of Friday, the Forest Service was specifically "responding to the incident related to the Snow Park lift on March 19. We, as the permit administrator, are continually ensuring that our permit holders are operating within the guidelines of their special-use permit. We are only looking into the Snow Park incident."
The March 19 incident wasn't the first safety concern with the Snow Park lift. When the lift was erected at Snowbowl, after being purchased used from Aspen-Snowmass, taller riders struck their heads on some of the "halo" devices on lift towers. Halos are metal guards intended to prevent a swinging chair from striking a tower. The lift was later modified to prevent people from hitting their heads.
Morris said Friday that the modification may have made it possible for the chair to strike the tower on March 19, but that upcoming assessment of the lift from an outside party could provide more insight.
"We don't design lifts, we're not in the business of designing lifts, you understand that right?" he said. Asked to confirm that Snowbowl had installed and modified the Snow Park lift by itself, he said, "We installed that lift based on the designs and oversight of a qualified engineer, per the regulations, the applicable regulations.
"There's intense oversight over every step of the installation of a lift and the operation of a lift," he said. "There's intense oversight and we operate within those parameters."
Snowbowl did not publicly acknowledge the March 19 incident until 11 days later, on Thursday evening. The Morrises stated in a social media post on Snowbowl's Facebook and Instagram accounts that "We want to extend our sincerest apologies to the child and his family. We fully realize the impact this incident has had on them and the community. The safety of our customers is paramount to Snowbowl's management and staff, and we are committed to investigating the cause of this incident and making any required changes."
The post came shortly after a Missoulian reporter left messages for Brad and Andy Morris requesting comment about how the Forest Service oversees chairlift safety.
The statement noted that Snow Park chairlift will remain closed pending inspection and a review of operating procedures and safety protocols. The statement did not mention the notice of non-compliance from the Forest Service, or that the Forest Service had ordered the lift inspection and review of operations. In an interview Friday, Andy Morris also did not mention that Snowbowl had received a non-compliance notice.
He said that, after the Forest Service contacted Snowbowl on March 19, "We agreed that we'd stop operating the lift. We immediately, the next day, scheduled a meeting with the engineer who designed the lift and the Forest Service for that Thursday." He said that "at the beginning of this week we decided that we'd get an outside engineer to come look as well."
According to Stonesifer, the Forest Service first learned of the March 19 incident from members of the public, not Snowbowl. Morris noted that the incident occurred on a Sunday afternoon and that the Forest Service had already learned of the incident and contacted Snowbowl before the ski area could notify the Forest Service.
"When there's an incident like that, we contact the Forest Service as soon as possible," Morris said. "It was a Sunday evening. He (a Forest Service snow-ranger) called us that evening."
Disappointed in response
McLeod, who was in the incident with his child, took issue with the Morrises' social-media statement. Speaking to the Missoulian Friday, he expressed frustration that the Morrises hadn't contacted him after the incident.
"They start out saying something along the lines of, we hope everything's OK with the family," he said. "I would imagine if they're really, truly concerned with our well-being, they'd contact us. But they haven't. It doesn't feel great."
McLeod said he did get a call from Art Wear, the director of Snowbowl Ski Patrol, about a week ago — but only after McLeod had contacted National Ski Patrol about the March 19 incident response. Snowbowl's professional and volunteer patrols are affiliated with National Ski Patrol.
"He placed all blame on the ski lift operator," McLeod said of Wear's call. "I was pretty disappointed in his response."
McLeod said he asked why ski patrollers didn't respond when they saw the lift stop as the broken chair came through the upper lift terminal adjacent to the patrol shack on TV Mountain.
"He said they couldn't be bothered to pay attention every time the ski lift stopped," McLeod said, characterizing Wear's response as "clearly not taking their responsibility very seriously, and clearly placing blame on somebody who is obviously not a very well trained employee."
McLeod also criticized how the Morrises' statement characterized their response to the incident: "The way they wrote it made it sound like they were making the choice to keep the ski lift closed ... but that is untrue, that is the Forest Service making them do that. That is not their choice. It wasn't until the Forest Service told them to shut it down that they shut it down."
And he questioned the integrity of lift inspections and tests conducted at Snowbowl.
"They're saying that they're doing all this investigative work on the ski lift chair, and they have inspections done on annual frequency, they say," he said. "Well, if these inspections are being done, then why did this incident happen in the first place? That leads me to question whether inspections are being done in a way that's professional and up to standards."
"I'm not coming from a place of anger or vengeance," McLeod added. "I truly just want Snowbowl to be safe, but I also think that the best way to ensure this is to be fully transparent with the public."
This has gotten enough press that my mother who lives in wisconsin asked me about this because I used to ski there.
This is the first time I've seen Andy described as an owner, and Ronnie not. That seems like a lot of work when you are also a new attorney at the biggest law firm in the state (by far).
While I have no doubt that he'll put that law degree to use, based on his statements to the reporter that FOS posted above, I think he would've been better off with a degree in public relations.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
It seems like the Morrises have achieved a new peak of bad PR. You'd think a lawyer would know enough not to say antagonistic things to reporters, especially when everything he's saying is going to fall under national scrutiny; when it comes to doing it wrong, that family are PR geniuses.
I feel bad for the liftie, she's a sweet kid, but I'm surprised she didn't think to call the ski patrol, and tell them about it. The self certification of lifts by ski areas was also a surprise. The tram-way safety board being eliminated, was during the same era as when the power utilities were turned over to business so we could have the price our electricity tripled. Yea deregulation!
From what I'd previously heard, Andy Morris didn't want to run the ski area, and that was at least part of why he went to law school, so seeing him described as the owner was unexpected.
By the way, the skiing was awesome today.
I wonder how far they are going go to push snowbowl on this? Maybe they comply with the order and all is gravy?
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Is this why I saw so many folks from the zoo over here? I mean we have a sign on the riblet saying "watch your head"....
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I wouldn't be surprised if a number of people changed plans and skied somewhere else. LT is closing this weekend anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelinksplit
Can confirm. Has been on the news here in Wisconsin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshphilling77
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