Official ATK Binding Thread

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Originally Posted by Melee

Well the FR14 on Spyderjon site is GBP499 - This is $645 USD and does not include shipping, duties or taxes.

I cant find the shim on the the Skimo.co site so if it exists or not is unclear and who knows the price (although most B&D shims are about $35-$40 for the pair and do not include screws). When dealing with aftermarket screws you may or may not penetrate the skis core at the optimal depth. So everything to me looks like its going to cost more than $700 and you have to be someone in the know on the forums to make this happen.

The ATK FR14 is not easily accessible in the USA and we wanted to change that since we think the FR14 is the best tech binding on the market but we still had some gripes about the ramp and didn't want to have to deal with aftermarket stuff. The guys at ATK are amazing and worked with us to modify and already awesome binding for our style of skiing.

So you can get the Moment Voyager XIV for "$100" more but there is no hassle, you can get it all at one place, in one piece, knowing it was developed and tested by the manufacturer.

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these are all fair points, but it's not like binding shims are some unknown, unproven technology - "you might be okay but you might die if you use this shim". people have been shimming bindings for years with CUTTING BOARDS from the dollar store for fuck's sake, and no one (to my knowledge) has died or been hurt from a shim job.

cool that moment is fixing this out of the gate though, again, props to them (and to melee) for responding here and fielding questions, etc.

I reckon I mount over half of my ATK sales with toe shims and I'm been pushing ATK to reduce the delta's across their range. For some reason most bindings manufacturers just seem oblivious to this. I'd like to see 5/6mm of delta across the ATK range as standard and then they offer a choice of different thickness shims/extended screws as extras.

I make all my shims out of 2/3/4/5/6mm acrylic and the required longer screws are easy when installing them with QK/BF inserts but shims with a conventional ATK mount are a pain as all the different models have different toe mounting patterns and different mounting screws, so it'd be great if ATK offered a choice of shims/extended screws.

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Originally Posted by tgapp

these are all fair points, but it's not like binding shims are some unknown, unproven technology - "you might be okay but you might die if you use this shim". people have been shimming bindings for years with CUTTING BOARDS from the dollar store for fuck's sake, and no one (to my knowledge) has died or been hurt from a shim job.

cool that moment is fixing this out of the gate though, again, props to them (and to melee) for responding here and fielding questions, etc.

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I've seen a toe pulled out because someone used improper length screws in a shimmed toe piece.

Nothing to do with the shims. Completely preventable. This packaging by moment just reduces that hassle and gives you stateside support.

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Originally Posted by Melee

Well the FR14 on Spyderjon site is GBP499 - This is $645 USD and does not include shipping, duties or taxes......

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No that's not correct. My GBP499 price is for sales within the UK/EU so it includes our 20% VAT. Sales to destinations outside of the UK/EU are exempt from the tax so the Freeraider 14 to the USA is GBP446 inc 2/3 day FedEx shipping = $575 on todays exchange rate with zero duty/tax as the shipped order value is under $800.

You USA based guys are lucky as I know of no other country that allows private citizens to import anything like this value without having to pay tax, duty & customs clearance etc. UK/EU citizens can only bring in about $20 shipped value from the US before we get hit for a couple of % duty, a clearing fee equivalent to $15 and 20% tax!

Thanks Melee and Jon, you are both rad and I'd like to support both of you if I could. Hopefully this doesn't turn into a battle here, I'm just choosing between two great options.

Jon, can you confirm the ATK14 price, has it changed since the quote you gave me a few pages back? And do you sell your toe shim and ship it for overseas buyers amd for how much?

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Originally Posted by tgapp

these are all fair points, but it's not like binding shims are some unknown, unproven technology - "you might be okay but you might die if you use this shim". people have been shimming bindings for years with CUTTING BOARDS from the dollar store for fuck's sake, and no one (to my knowledge) has died or been hurt from a shim job.

cool that moment is fixing this out of the gate though, again, props to them (and to melee) for responding here and fielding questions, etc.

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I never said you would die! haha. There are just a lot of variables with aftermarket stuff in any industry.

Shims are pretty unknown to people who don't dork out on the forums...most people don't even know what ramp is and how it varies from forward lean in a ski boot.

It's just a hassle. After buying a $600-$700 binding and $800 skis the last thing someone should have to do is got chop up an old CUTTING BOARD to sandwich between them!

Do it right from the beginning.

^^ fair man, and again, props to you guys for fixing what is easily most american's biggest complaint with that binding. good on you for doing it right, stoked to see more bindings like these on the US market.

and to muted's point - i agree completely, two great options, both from awesome mags who contribute regularly here. tgr is a pretty great place. both of you are totally deserving of support.

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Originally Posted by Melee

I never said you would die! haha.

Shims are pretty unknown to people who don't dork out on the forums...

It's just a hassle. After buying a $600-$700 binding and $800 skis the last thing someone should have to do is got chop up an old CUTTING BOARD to sandwich between them!

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I just want to point out that someone on this board has both extended his ski tips/tails with cutting boards and mounted bindings with carpet tape.

Best selling product at TGappSkiMoCo:

Seasoned Artisanal Cuttingboard Shims for ATK toes - 5mm - now in Red Onion, Rare Steak Pink, Rancid Gryuere Green, and Calamari Cream.

Roughed up surface provides superior friction stiction to the topsheet, in a way only cheap Cuisinart cutlery can imbue.

Tenacious dual-purpose odors repel Pugetopolis Powder Technicians and Wasatch Pre-dawn Randocommandos while attracting trained avalanche dogs. Leave your avy bacon at home!

^^ total bullshit, as anyone who knows me can tell you, my shims are also FAIR TRADE, organic, and gluten free. wouldn't want to accidentally trigger a grain allergy in one of the avy dogs. only the best for powder pups.

Finally got my Helio 350s mounted on Praxis MVPs with inserts. Other mounts are for vipecs, it works but was kinda a pain to line everything up and not collide. Super impressed with the bindings on the bench, if they ski as well as they feel the vipecs might never go back on. Freeride spacer on order from Hagan.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2e...-no?authuser=0

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Originally Posted by muted

.......Jon, can you confirm the ATK14 price, has it changed since the quote you gave me a few pages back? And do you sell your toe shim and ship it for overseas buyers amd for how much?

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muted, Yep, the price is unchanged. And yes, I can supply shims made from 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6mm clear acrylic (which can be stacked) with suitably longer screws. The screws can be either conventional binding screws or no.2 pozi s/s M5's for use with inserts. I drill and shape the shims to follow the shape of the base plate but with a few mm extra around the perimeter, like this:

Attachment 343671

The tax free cost of the shims is GBP28 per pair for the 2/3/4mm, GBP29 for the 5mm and GBP30 for the 6mm. A set of 8no. conventional extended toe screws is GBP10 and a set of 9no. extended M5 insert toe screws is GBP5. Including shims/screws in with a set of bindings won't increase the shipping cost.

If you want to shim thicker than 6mm (ie if you stack two shims together) then I'll only charge GBP7.00 for the second set of shims as there's no extra labour as I stack all the raw material on top of each and drill'n'shape 'em in one go. I've done quite thick shims for alpine bindings (usually for people with weird anatomical shit going on) but on most tech bindings 6/7mm is about as thick as I'd recommend otherwise you adversely effect the heights of the climbing bars too much - although it's usually straightforward enough to graft some material on top of them as well.

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

........I've done quite thick shims for alpine bindings (usually for people with weird anatomical shit going on)......

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Hopefully none of you guys'n'gals have legs that need a solution like this:

Attachment 343679

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

Hopefully none of you guys'n'gals have legs that need a solution like this:

Attachment 343679

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That is some dedication if someone actually wants to ski requiring a mount like that...

OMG!!! Is that from too much time in the saddle? Never seen anything like that

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Originally Posted by rudy

OMG!!! Is that from too much time in the saddle? Never seen anything like that

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The guy is actually a very accomplished high alpine ski mountaineer/tourer and has completed many of the classic routes/peaks. He's now of 'senior' age and has been this 'shape' all his life. He's had similar shims for years with alpine bindings and a frame binding but transitioned to a tech binding a few years ago when I did these for him.

Buy it from @spyderjon, get his shims, or alternatively, ask your local plastic shop to let you rummage through their scrap bin for some UHMW (cutting board material).

... Thom

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Originally Posted by Melee

Do it right from the beginning.

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This. Don't use an old cutting board, buy a fresh one. If you're dumb enough to have already shelled out $600-700 for a set of clamps you can splurge for a new cutting board.

Shims as a novel concept for people who aren't tech savvy... Gimme a break, if someone can't figure out how to address pin delta they're not noticing it in the first place and it's a non-issue.
Fixing the problem out of the gate will probably result in a $50 markup to account for the "new technology" of an integrated baseplate, I'll stick with making $4.99 shims.

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

Hopefully none of you guys'n'gals have legs that need a solution like this:

Attachment 343679

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Holy Shim Batman!
Are you correcting a severe knock knee or filling a severe bowleg?If filling a bowleg, can you explain filling versus moving the knee in with thick side out?

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Originally Posted by Melee

I never said you would die! haha. There are just a lot of variables with aftermarket stuff in any industry.

Shims are pretty unknown to people who don't dork out on the forums...most people don't even know what ramp is and how it varies from forward lean in a ski boot.

It's just a hassle. After buying a $600-$700 binding and $800 skis the last thing someone should have to do is got chop up an old CUTTING BOARD to sandwich between them!

Do it right from the beginning.

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And who is the arbiter of what's right?

... Thom

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Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un

And who is the arbiter of what's right?

... Thom

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Do whats right for you.

Tinkering leads to innovation. We shimmed our tech bindings for years too...and there still plenty of folks who will continue to do that. That's cool.

We are offering a complete no tinkering needed package easily accessible to USA customers.

Now you can spend more time tinkering with your boots because at the end of the day we all want to be Hoji.

The part of me that wants to be Hoji isn’t the tinkerer ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oof, must be friday. If you're catering to American preferences, should have gone to only 3 skinning positions! Not sure how you'd end up with three useful positions with that design, but 5 is too many.

Great product though, for real. Staying on team mtn, but suddenly voyager-curious

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Originally Posted by Melee

... We are offering a complete no tinkering needed package easily accessible to USA customers ...

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Wow! Great market-speak. No tinkering required ... if you like a 7mm delta.

Waiting for your next release: VSA - variable stance adjustment (adjustable ramp via multiple shims).

That being said, congratulations on importing and supporting the brand.

... Thom

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Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un

Wow! Great market-speak. No tinkering required ... if you like a 7mm delta.

Waiting for your next release: VSA - variable stance adjustment (adjustable ramp via multiple shims).

That being said, congratulations on importing and supporting the brand.

... Thom

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Shimming to zero delta gives you an insane stack height. So 7.5mm is a great compromise.
You have to look at all the variables. If zero was a better option we would have done that but I guess that’s just marketing speak! You totally caught me!

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Originally Posted by Melee

Shimming to zero delta gives you an insane stack height. So 7.5mm is a great compromise.
You have to look at all the variables. If zero was a better option we would have done that but I guess that’s just marketing speak! You totally caught me!

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Not sure why people are so irked by your efforts to bring a binding with awesome features and a reduced ramp out of the box, but people are always gonna be unhappy somehow.

I for one appreciate the effort and if I was in the market for a binding currently. The Voyager would be on my coin flip list.

Keep up the good work Luke

I was asked by beder about replacing existing Shifts with Freeraider 14's using the same bsl, in this case 305mm. I thought I'd post the reply as others may be interested. Here's the two sets of mounting locations, both marked using the factory jigs positioned on the mounting line. As you can see there's no problem at the toe but there is at the heel. The front heel holes have 10mm centre to centre longitudinal seperation but there's only a mm of seperation between the rear heel holes.

Attachment 343785

The ATK jig positions the heel pretty much in the middle of its 25mm length adjustment range so to miss the existing Shift holes there's just enough adjustment to mount the FR14 heel rearward to get sufficient clearance (10mm c-t-c) and then move the heel turret forward in its track to the proper location. For a dual inserts mount the rear locations are going to be very close as I like 16mm c-t-c on those and there's not enough length adjustment in the FR14 heel to get that - but I'm usually ok with that if it's on a ski with a meaty core.

I've done this Shift/FR14 combination as a dual insert mount on the same ski a couple of times this month but both were on new skis so mounting the Shift heel forward 6/7mm made getting the necessary seperation easy to achieve.

The usual caveat of 'dummy mount first' applies.

Wow, above and beyond Jon. Thanks a million.

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Originally Posted by Sargentdrufus

Not sure why people are so irked by your efforts to bring a binding with awesome features and a reduced ramp out of the box, but people are always gonna be unhappy somehow.

I for one appreciate the effort and if I was in the market for a binding currently. The Voyager would be on my coin flip list.

Keep up the good work Luke

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I agree, that bringing the binder into the country is a good thing, and as I mentioned above, Luke is to be applauded for this.

I can however, get really grumpy when I read market bullshit (as if he reconciled Quantum Mechanics & General Relativity), when all he did was to say: "hey ATK, can ya increase the toe base plate height by 4mm?".

If Moment didn't have such a good reputation around here, market talk like the above would have me running in the opposite direction.

Maybe Luke is smarter than me (likely) and has his finger on the pulse of the intelligence of the average American consumer.

He probably does ;-)

... Thom

Now we know how to rile up Thom: threaten to take away his homemade tech risers

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Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un

I agree, that bringing the binder into the country is a good thing, and as I mentioned above, Luke is to be applauded for this.

I can however, get really grumpy when I read market bullshit (as if he reconciled Quantum Mechanics & General Relativity), when all he did was to say: "hey ATK, can ya increase the toe base plate height by 4mm?".

If Moment didn't have such a good reputation around here, market talk like the above would have me running in the opposite direction.

Maybe Luke is smarter than me (likely) and has his finger on the pulse of the intelligence of the average American consumer.

He probably does ;-)

... Thom

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Hey man, pretty sure you do manufacturing too. You know there's more to it than just asking to bump that thickness up a little bit please.


And there is something to say for an integrated riser. Since people do complain about having to shim bindings, why not integrate the shim? Yeah shims aren't the most complicated things but it's still a small hassle.

I'm not the biggest fan of marketing talk either, but they do need to sell the bindings they committed to having built for them. And people who hang out in tech talk are probably not representative of anyone's customers

Can anyone quantify how mo better the ramp angle adjustment made their skiing?
The moment cats have been great to me
I'm stoked to send them monies for a pair
But I've had no problem with the ramp angle since they 1st came out
I really couldn't tell a difference with the stomp pad vrs without
I puts it on cause it made pin protection sense
But I'm not the techiest tech

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Originally Posted by skifishbum

Can anyone quantify how mo better the ramp angle adjustment made their skiing?
The moment cats have been great to me
I'm stoked to send them monies for a pair
But I've had no problem with the ramp angle since they 1st came out
I really couldn't tell a difference with the stomp pad vrs without
I puts it on cause it made pin protection sense
But I'm not the techiest tech

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I'm good with a delta of about 10mm or less. And if I'm skiing powder I don't care much at all. But on hard snow with too much ramp it feels like the ski's sweet spot is shrunk down to nothing.

I first notice with Plum guides which have a silly difference in height between toe and heel pins. Added a 6mm toe shim and I could suddenly ski well again.

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Yeah I'm picky about it, too. Not just on firm, but in crusts or variable grabby shit as well. It puts your CG too far forward on the ski, so the ass has to go back to balance.

This effect was most pronounced on a set of skis in which I had inserts for Pivots (~7mm) and Vertical FT12 (~16mm). Switching between really made me hate the higher ramp and I aim to hit that 7 or 8 mm delta now with everything.

So youse are saying I could be a 3+
Sold

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Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

I first notice with Plum guides which have a silly difference in height between toe and heel pins. Added a 6mm toe shim and I could suddenly ski well again.

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yup plums were the first time i understood the whole ramp thing.

SFB - you'll know there's a problem if there is one. If you don't feel it, don't sweat it. For me, it was like damn, i don't like these skis. wait a minute, i liked the exact same shape inbounds, what's going on here....massive forum digging...ramp angle...shims

Ha

How much can your boot also effect ramp angle? I'm not talking boot board ramp. Would different boots in the same binding have the same ramp or different based on their heel and toe thickness and sole rocker/shape?

If I don't feel there is any issue should I even worry about shimming toes?

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Originally Posted by Sargentdrufus

How much can your boot also effect ramp angle? I'm not talking boot board ramp. Would different boots in the same binding have the same ramp or different based on their heel and toe thickness and sole rocker/shape?

If I don't feel there is any issue should I even worry about shimming toes?

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Different boots can be very very different. If you don’t feel any issue why bother?

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Originally Posted by CaliBrit

Different boots can be very very different. If you don’t feel any issue why bother?

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That was my thinking as well.