Bread Baking (sourdough)

So I tried an experiment and did the water pan with the dutch over uncovered. I got a great crust on top but this head faked me into thinking the loaf was done. pulled it out and found it had the consistency of a soft rye bread. Not bad but not really what I was looking for. I also used a store bought mixer to see if that would give me a better mix/knead.

I will go back to doing the covered bake for first 20-25 minutes then uncovered for the remaining time. Usually 55-60 minutes at 420F in my oven.

Here is a utoob viddy I found.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn8l4IRPugw

Thanks for posting that video SB!

Well.... I got a Emile Henry No Knead Bread Pot for Christmas and am going to try it out with the basic recipe that came with it. I've made a big pot of chicken noodle soup and need some bread to accompany it.

I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed that I can't find a lot of info online re: the use of said pot or adapting recipes to it. I have two bread books ("The Bread Baker's Apprentice" by Peter Reinhart and "Local Breads" by Daniel Leader) neither of which address the use of such pots or even dutch ovens. Peter Reinhart mentions cloches in passing as a novelty you can try if you're inclined to use such things <roll eyes>

Mr. Mike had recommended a book to me this past summer that I have since discovered has many recipes for dutch oven baking so I've ordered it today. It's called "Flour Water Salt Yeast: The Fundamentals of Artisan Bread and Pizza."

Up until now I've formed and baked boules on a stone which works great but it leaves me with a very hot stone in my oven that takes a while to cool down. I like the idea of having just the pot but I understand I will have to be moving a very hot pot now but that is much more manageable than a big stone. Also, there is the risk of breakage. It's always something and you don't know until you try so I'm trying.......

Any thoughts or advice is much appreciated.

So after all of my reading and thinking about how to use the bread pot I discovered I did not have enough time to follow the recipe that came with the pot because it called for a 12-18 hour rise. I wanted bread tonight so I had to change gears.

I ended up choosing to make Broa a hearty Portuguese bread made with corn meal, flour and honey. I've made it before cooking it on a parchment lined baking sheet.

Mixed it up and let it rise as directed but for the second rise, because I was going to have to flip out into the preheated bread pot, I used a lined brotform that I sprinkled with corn meal.

This is the result:

Attachment 309416


I did not remove the lid for browning and stuck to the prescribed cooking time/temp.

One thing I did do was practice taking the lid off the pot with potholders prior to heating it. I wasn't sure which pot holders would give me the most dexterity/grip and with only a small lip to hold onto I wanted to know how it was going to work before it was 450 degrees. Turned out the best choice were silicone pads. I also made sure I had a second cooling rack handy to place the lid on while I flipped the dough into the pot.

All in all it worked well IMO.

My wife bought me one of these for Christmas


https://breadtopia.com/store/round-cloche/

I’m a bread baking jong, but the results have been impressive. I preheat it in a 475 degree oven, drop the dough in and bake covered for about 30 minutes. Pull the lid for another 20 or so and get this:

Attachment 309420

Like it so much I ordered an oblong one to do more traditional shaped loafs.

Those look really nice.

both loaves above look great! I got another bread baking book for Christmas--Tartine, which is a restaurant in San Fran apparently. The book is good. Really more of a text book than a recipe book, but informative. i made a loaf last week using the Basic Country loaf recipe, and it turned out great.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Mike

both loaves above look great! I got another bread baking book for Christmas--Tartine, which is a restaurant in San Fran apparently. The book is good. Really more of a text book than a recipe book, but informative. i made a loaf last week using the Basic Country loaf recipe, and it turned out great.

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D'oh! I'm always a step behind! :tongue:


Might as well put this up in case any of you are interested in baking this wonderful bread. I highly recommend Caldo Verde to go with it. This came from the King Arthur site but I noticed the other day it is no longer there. Glad I saved it.


I would consider this a heavy dense bread.


Broa

Perhaps Portugal's most famous bread is the ubiquitous Portuguese sweet bread, massa sovada, a loaf rich with eggs, milk and butter, and sweet enough to eat as dessert. But clearly, sweet bread isn't an everyday, every-meal bread; the more homely broa is the better choice to serve with meat, cheese and salad, for lunch or at dinner. Broa's traditional accompaniments are caldo verde (a kale, potato and sausage soup), and a dish of peas and eggs. We suggest using it for sandwiches and toast; it's a delightful everyday bread.

1 cup (4 1/8 ounces) yellow cornmeal
3/4 cup (6 ounces) hot water
1/2 cup (4 ounces) milk, warmed
2 teaspoons instant yeast
2 1/2 cups (10 3/4 ounces) King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
2 tablespoons (1 1/4 ounces) honey
1 tablespoon olive oil


Mix together the cornmeal and hot water in a small bowl. Stir in the warm milk, and let the mixture cool to lukewarm. Then add the remaining ingredients and mix and knead them together -- by hand, mixer or bread machine -- to form a smooth, slightly sticky dough.

Place the dough in a lightly greased bowl and turn it over, so that the top is oiled. Cover the dough and let it rise for 1 1/2 hours, or until it's puffy; this rising time will develop both the flavor and the gluten.

Turn the dough out onto a lightly greased or floured work surface, knead it lightly (just once or twice), and form it into a ball. Place it onto a lightly greased or parchment-lined baking sheet, or one that's been sprinkled with cornmeal. Cover it and let it rise for 45 minutes, or until it's very puffy.

Just before placing the loaf in a preheated 450°F oven, spritz it lightly with water and make four slashes, each about 1/4-inch deep, into the top crust. Place the loaf in the oven and bake it for 10 minutes, then turn the oven down to 400°F, and continue to bake for another 15 minutes, or until it's golden brown. Yield: l round loaf, 12 slices.


Nutrition information per serving (1 slice, 61g): 148 cal, 2g fat, 4g protein, 27g complex carbohydrates, 2g sugar, 2g dietary fiber, 276mg sodium, 90mg potassium, 11RE vitamin A, 2mg iron, 14mg calcium, 64mg phosphorus.

Bread baking in a Dutch oven

https://www.kingarthurflour.com/site...?itok=rocdl29_

Have any of you tried making cinnamon rolls with a sourdough starter?

I'm thinking about giving this recipe a try this weekend. https://www.kingarthurflour.com/reci...on-buns-recipe

A little rosemary sourdough for a rainy Thursday.

Attachment 309853

My scoring technique still needs some work.

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Originally Posted by ripvw

A little rosemary sourdough for a rainy Thursday.

Attachment 309853

My scoring technique still needs some work.

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"Live Long and Prosper"

Looks perfect...

Its more like Fonzi.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

My 10 year old wanted her initial on it. Thus the A.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Still trying to figure out the best bulk ferment vs proofing strategies. Lots of conflicting info on the interwebs. I've tried 4-5 hours of bulk fermenting then shaping and refrigerating over night. Worked ok, but dough didn't really rise again until I left it on the counter for a couple hours. Did an overnight room temp ferment, shaped the next morning, proofed for a couple hours and baked. That one (not surprisingly) was over proofed. Tried a couple of other things with mixed results.
So whatcha got for technique?

I been proofing in the Dutch oven next day.

Seems to help but not always. ��

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Originally Posted by ripvw

Still trying to figure out the best bulk ferment vs proofing strategies. Lots of conflicting info on the interwebs. I've tried 4-5 hours of bulk fermenting then shaping and refrigerating over night. Worked ok, but dough didn't really rise again until I left it on the counter for a couple hours. Did an overnight room temp ferment, shaped the next morning, proofed for a couple hours and baked. That one (not surprisingly) was over proofed. Tried a couple of other things with mixed results.
So whatcha got for technique?

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My go to for the last year has been this...
Autolyse for 90min after rough mix (no salt)
Add salt, stretch and fold 30x
Continue stretch and fold about every 30min for 90-120min.
Cover and put in fridge overnight
Take out of fridge, shape and place on parchment in bowl to proof for a couple/few hours (covered in fancy French cloth you aren't supposed to wash)
Bake as usual

This has been mostly with a fairly high hydration recipe if that helps. Only other thing i've noticed is that it is super temp. dependent on the final proof, if the house is too cool I will put in oven with the light on and it speeds things up/maintains correct temp.

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Originally Posted by mcove

My go to for the last year has been this...
Autolyse for 90min after rough mix (no salt)
Add salt, stretch and fold 30x
Continue stretch and fold about every 30min for 90-120min.
Cover and put in fridge overnight
Take out of fridge, shape and place on parchment in bowl to proof for a couple/few hours (covered in fancy French cloth you aren't supposed to wash)
Bake as usual

This has been mostly with a fairly high hydration recipe if that helps. Only other thing i've noticed is that it is super temp. dependent on the final proof, if the house is too cool I will put in oven with the light on and it speeds things up/maintains correct temp.

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This sounds a lot like what I do except that I will usually start first thing in the morning and spend more like 4-5 hours in the initial ferment, folding every 30 minutes and then go straight to shaping and the final ferment. I find that the sourdough is pretty forgiving as long as you have time to wait. Sometimes I'll start the process right before bed and thus skip the bulk of the folding. That can work too. My methods are lifted straight out of the Tartine Bread book...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ripvw

Still trying to figure out the best bulk ferment vs proofing strategies. Lots of conflicting info on the interwebs. I've tried 4-5 hours of bulk fermenting then shaping and refrigerating over night. Worked ok, but dough didn't really rise again until I left it on the counter for a couple hours. Did an overnight room temp ferment, shaped the next morning, proofed for a couple hours and baked. That one (not surprisingly) was over proofed. Tried a couple of other things with mixed results.
So whatcha got for technique?

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mcove is onto something with holding the salt initially as it can hamper rising.

I use a bread proofing box to ensure I have a consistent temp and humidity for rising. I resorted to buying this because I didn't have a good spot in my house to allow for proper rising. I'm really happy with it - folds up to the size of two baking sheets and stores easily. I did buy it through King Arthur but you can get it cheaper elsewhere or you can go online and find info on building your own.

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Originally Posted by KQ

mcove is onto something with holding the salt initially as it can hamper rising.

I use a bread proofing box to ensure I have a consistent temp and humidity for rising. I resorted to buying this because I didn't have a good spot in my house to allow for proper rising. I'm really happy with it - folds up to the size of two baking sheets and stores easily. I did buy it through King Arthur but you can get it cheaper elsewhere or you can go online and find info on building your own.

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Yeah, I’ve been doing the autolyse, sans salt, for 30-60 minutes. That proofer looks cool, will definitely put it on my list. Are you using it for both initial ferment and proofing or are you doing something with cold storage?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ripvw

Yeah, I’ve been doing the autolyse, sans salt, for 30-60 minutes. That proofer looks cool, will definitely put it on my list. Are you using it for both initial ferment and proofing or are you doing something with cold storage?

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I use it for all rising no matter what kind of yeasted bread I'm making (sourdough, pizza dough, no knead etc.). I like the certainty temp and humidity. Its very easy to set up and use. I highly recommend it.

For my sourdough I do a cold rise overnight but in the morning I put it back in the box for the final rise.

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Originally Posted by Buke

Have any of you tried making cinnamon rolls with a sourdough starter?

I'm thinking about giving this recipe a try this weekend. https://www.kingarthurflour.com/reci...on-buns-recipe

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Yes, Mrs Flounder makes them now and then. Tastes great and she says the recipe is pretty easy. Only downside is you'll eat a lot of them and they aren't exactly low calorie.

I have been using the oven as a proofing box of sorts. The lowest it will go is 170F so I just turn it on for a couple of minutes and then off. I put the dutch oven in with the dough inside and leave it for 4 or 5 hours. I am baking at 420F usually for 50-60 minutes.

Gonna try the later salt addition on my next dough.

Attachment 310210

Latest effort. Did the batch ferment at room temp for about 4 hours. Shaped the loaves and put in floured baskets to proof in the fridge overnight. Didn’t seem to rise much overnight, but got great oven spring putting the cold dough in the hot cooker.

Bread tastes great, but has a very open crumb and the bottom crust is a little tough. Still working out the kinks!

fantastic

Attachment 310394

low maintenance loaf courtesy of The Beast

It has that Godzilla look.

Sunday's efforts.
1. My normal sourdough loaf. I've pretty much settled on 75% AP, 15% WW, 10% Rye, 74% hydration, + 20% hydration sourdough starter (@100% hydration), 2% salt
2. First attempt at cinnamon rolls. They turned out pretty good but they would improve with icing and I think rolling them thinner and getting a little more of the sugar filling would be good too.
Attachment 310482
Attachment 310483

Worked from home with a sick wife and kid yesterday, did a power bake.

Same steps I posted above, but skipped the overnight ferment. Mixed up in the early AM, stretch and fold periodically over a couple hours, bulk ferment in the warm spot, shape and final proof then bake.
Also reduced the flour by about 5-7% to see what it did, seems like slightly more open crumb and fluffier chew (if that makes sense). Not sure I like it more or not. Love the ongoing experiment.
P.S. The dark loaf is all WW flour with about 1/3 Rye flour I needed to use up. Also had about 65g of local honey, pretty good dense hearty loaf.
Attachment 310780
Attachment 310781
Attachment 310782

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Originally Posted by Buke

Sunday's efforts.
1. My normal sourdough loaf. I've pretty much settled on 75% AP, 15% WW, 10% Rye, 74% hydration, + 20% hydration sourdough starter (@100% hydration), 2% salt

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcove

Worked from home with a sick wife and kid yesterday, did a power bake.

Same steps I posted above, but skipped the overnight ferment. Mixed up in the early AM, stretch and fold periodically over a couple hours, bulk ferment in the warm spot, shape and final proof then bake.
Also reduced the flour by about 5-7% to see what it did, seems like slightly more open crumb and fluffier chew (if that makes sense). Not sure I like it more or not. Love the ongoing experiment.
P.S. The dark loaf is all WW flour with about 1/3 Rye flour I needed to use up. Also had about 65g of local honey, pretty good dense hearty loaf.

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So do you two work out of Ken Forkish's book Flour Salt Water Yeast?

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Originally Posted by KQ

So do you two work out of Ken Forkish's book Flour Salt Water Yeast?

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Negative, no books used so far. Self experimentation and a couple tips from buddies. Also used a few recipes/tips from http://www.thefreshloaf.com/

I really do need to start keeping a log or journal to keep track of recipes and percentages.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Mike

looks great. Amazing the light heats up the oven that much. I guess that's due to an oven being so well insulated. I'll have to throw a thermometer in mine and see what I get.

I baked my first levain (sourdough) recipe Saturday. Actually, a hybrid because I used a little active yeast also. The difference in how well it keeps vs. a pure active yeast loaf is noticeable. Had a slice this morning, and it still seems fresh. I would be making croutons from a pure active yeast loaf by now.

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Reaching way back for this quote but I have new knowledge re: freshness because of that book you recommended.

According to Mr. Forkish (page 29):

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Longer developing time also causes dough to become more acidic. Up to a point, this is a a good thing. More acidity in bread means it stays fresher longer, and lactic and acetic acids add valuable and unique flavors, aromas, and sensations. However, too much acidity creates a cloying aftertaste that many people, including me, find disagreeable. The trick is finding the right balance between time and temperature so the dough develops a desirable complexity of flavors without becoming too acid or dominated by alcohols, while simultaneously getting optimal development of the structure of the dough.

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My SD would stay fresh for a very long time compared to the loaves I bought from a local bakery however mine also had a very strong aftertaste and now I know why. I've got some dough in the proofer now. I've been closely watching the rising times and temps along the way keeping it conservative whereas before I would usually go to the end of the recommended range. It will go into the fridge tonight and get baked tomorrow. Hopefully this time I will not end up with that strong aftertaste.

BTW: I'm using a Cooks 24hr Sourdough recipe that calls for making a sponge (biga) with refreshed starter. The biga is left to rise for 2-4hrs then it is added to 12oz of 70 degree H2O and 24oz of flour, 1/2 cup at a time, is mixed in using a Kitchen Aid with dough hook. The dough is rested for 20mins then 2.5tsp of salt is added (I use KA bread salt) and it is once again mixed with Kitchen Aid for about 5 mins. I then knead it for 30 secs shaping it into a smooth ball and proof it for 3 - 5 hrs (at this point the dough was 75 degrees so I set my proofing box to 70 degrees). Once the final warm proof is done the dough is stretched, divided, shaped and proofed overnight in the fridge.


Question for you Mr. Mike: Have you tried many of the recipes in Forkish's book and did you invest in a 12qt tub? Not that it's an "investment" just wondering if it really is helpful.

Also, I notice from your pics you've got quite the compliment of Emil Henry bakers. Do you like the loaf pan and which one is it? I was looking at them and the reviews weren't esp. positive.

dough in the fridge

bakey friday

Question for the collective:

Do we think that I can bake my sourdough boules from a recipe that calls for baking on a stone in a Dutch oven?

My recipe calls for 30 mins on a preheated stone (500, turn down to 450). I've read another recipe that had about the same percentages of water/flour/salt/ yeast that bakes in a Dutch oven for 50mins (475).

My recipe calls for a 2-4hr rise at room temp after a 8-12 overnight rise in the fridge. The Dutch oven recipe calls for a 12-14 rise in the fridge overnight and then straight into a preheated Dutch oven.

What do you think? Can I leave my boules in the fridge longer skipping the room temp rise and bake them longer in a Dutch oven?

Absolutely can do it in the Dutch Oven. I've tried so many times on a stone (and steel baking sheet) and never get as good of results. Almost every recipe I make goes in the dutch oven, except for loaves. Interested to find a baguette shaped dutch oven cooker.

I would not recommend skipping the room temp rise. I feel you get a better oven rise if the shaped dough is at least up to room temp or close. Most of mine that I have put in straight from the fridge don't rise as well and tend to over brown before internal temp is appropriate. My .02

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Originally Posted by mcove

Absolutely can do it in the Dutch Oven. I've tried so many times on a stone (and steel baking sheet) and never get as good of results. Almost every recipe I make goes in the dutch oven, except for loaves. Interested to find a baguette shaped dutch oven cooker.

I would not recommend skipping the room temp rise. I feel you get a better oven rise if the shaped dough is at least up to room temp or close. Most of mine that I have put in straight from the fridge don't rise as well and tend to over brown before internal temp is appropriate. My .02

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Okay but what about the cooking time? Will that change?

Stone method is 30 mins.

I opted to stay with the tried and true this go around. I needed bread and had invested too much time to have it not turn out.

Next time I follow the other recipe from Forkish to compare and contrast.


Attachment 311202

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Originally Posted by KQ

I opted to stay with the tried and true this go around. I needed bread and had invested too much time to have it not turn out.

Next time I follow the other recipe from Forkish to compare and contrast.


Attachment 311202

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My, what nice round loaves you have!

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Originally Posted by riser3

My, what nice round loaves you have!

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And oh so tasty! Just enjoyed several butter slices with some beef barley soup I made today. Purrrrrrrrrr, purrrrrrrrrrrrr, purrrrrrrrrrrrrr, life is good!

They look like perfect soup bowls. The Farnsworth in Gettysburg PA serves a cheese, ham and potato soup in a bread bowl that is pretty darn good.

My loaf turned out ok, bottom is a tad crunchy. I tried the late salt addition after the dough did a good rise. Still doing an hour at 420F. I am liking my Costway mixer.

Attachment 311294

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Originally Posted by SB

They look like perfect soup bowls. The Farnsworth in Gettysburg PA serves a cheese, ham and potato soup in a bread bowl that is pretty darn good.

My loaf turned out ok, bottom is a tad crunchy. I tried the late salt addition after the dough did a good rise. Still doing an hour at 420F. I am liking my Costway mixer.

Attachment 311294

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They're a bit bigger than they seem in the pic. Would be A LOT of soup and bread for one person to eat.

You bake your bread for an hour? Was this in a Dutch oven or on a stone?