Antiwork

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Originally Posted by Not DJSapp

First example is similar to Magnificent Unicorn, we set daily production targets. Hit them and we're done and you get paid 8. Crew got it down to where they were done in 6.5 (18% faster). Which was nice until we ran into some problems further down the pipeline and it's a one way street on paying the crew. I blew my labor budget by 15%, which was our margin. Would we have made budget if I worked the crew 8's every day? Possibly, but the crew would have been a bit more tired so maybe they wouldn't have put as much work in place every day. In all honestly, I think that crew would have been happier working 50 hour weeks and getting the OT.

Second example was the steak streak. Weekly $200 steak dinner gift card for each member of the crew for beating the previous 2 week's production. That worked well, but motivation fell off toward the end as they got to the most efficient the job could be reasonably done for.

All of these incentives and paying more for fewer hours always sounds great, until there is a problem to work through.

Engineers and staff, their work product can't truly be accelerated and condensed. They are coordinating, planning, and meeting. Many jobs when we're in the thick of it can have over 20 hours a week of scheduled meetings. Not counting travel time to said meetings. We still need time to do all those things we talked about in the meetings. My biggest frustration in summer interns that take their 'your salary is based on a 40 hour week' to the letter. We're often dealing with situations in the field well after the 8 hour day is over and we're ready to dish out tasks to the team and they're long gone. Sure, they're interns and the expectation is low, but being the supervision level your entire existence is to provide for the crew building the work. If you're not there prepping everything for the before they arrive and cleaning up issues after they're gone, how can you justify your position? Supervision must be onsite as long or longer than the crew.

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When you were incentivizing the get it done quick and go home mentality I wonder how much rework you had? And if that perhaps contributed to blowing the budget?

As far as the engineering and office staff goes, completely agree that the work is going to take as long as the work takes. There’s a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes to keep the field moving. What I struggle to understand is why every job I’ve ever been on has IMO been grossly understaffed. I mean yea I get it, overhead is worked into the budget and the easiest way to save in that department is going with the skeleton crew. But that fucks you in so many ways down the road. Shit inevitably gets missed, people get burned out and quit, etc. A lot of the work done by the engineering staff is straight up admin work. What does it take to hire a couple admins to handle that stuff so the engineers can be doing what they’re supposed to be doing. Cause in my experience an understaffed engineering department goes one of two ways. The engineers are stuck in the office all day and not fulfilling their field duties (mainly related to quality), or they are out in the field all day then come back to the office with hours of work left to do after the craft goes home and get burned out in 8 months.

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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

Your last sentence is the most pertinent. Having been a supervisor, manager and director, the thing I don’t understand about a lot (most?) management people is they don’t understand that to be an effective manager you need to work more than the staff. It’s harder but the potential reward is greater and you have the responsibility. Most managers that I encounter don’t understand the longer hours and are usually trying to shift the responsibility to someone underneath them. You can delegate authority but not responsibility.

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100%. But that same ideology is what scares off a lot of work life balance oriented, otherwise intelligent and hard working employees. And I’m not talking about working 10s here, more like 12-13s for the rest of your life.

lets see wages are way up and productivity is way down
thats pretty much it across the board in construction probably the same with wfh people who are doing laundry and "working" and posting on tgr
guys are holding employers hostage and demanding high wages or they walk where I live

had a guy I hired last fall just for the warm body and I'd get some work out of him
told him he couldn't reek of weed at work so the next day he comes in drenched in drakar noir smoking weed and working are ok stinking like your carrying around an oz is not ok
finally my in house framing crew was behind a snow storm was on its way that afternoon and I wanted the roof done and sheeted and dried in I made that very clear
I show up at 730 to lead these guys out roofers scheduled to be there after lunch
watch them roll in take note of the time and let them know I will be checking time sheets for accuracy drakar noir boy shows up and I start barking orders and telling him to put the move on
he texts me that night that he quit I call him the next morning won't answer just wanted to know why he quit but he was such a pussy he wouldn't talk to me even though I made three phone calls over two days

everyone one wants to hit enter on a keyboard and make six figures these days

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Originally Posted by east or bust

What I struggle to understand is why every job I’ve ever been on has IMO been grossly understaffed. I mean yea I get it, overhead is worked into the budget and the easiest way to save in that department is going with the skeleton crew. But that fucks you in so many ways down the road. Shit inevitably gets missed, people get burned out and quit, etc.

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Our industry is broken.

Precon and estimating folk win jobs and get their bonuses with low bids. Low bids mean low GC/GRs, which means understaffed.

Things have improved in the last 20 years with “best value” proposal methodologies… but money still always wins. An executive at my employer used to always say “a million dollars buys a lot of advil.”



Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Allow me to translate new grad or intern mentality:

“I’m so important to the success of this project I must work longer hours, be college educated, probably get little to no training on leadership or management and am asked to sacrifice my work life balance constantly and in exchange I get paid less than the apprentice pounding nails into forms? Oh, and my future is 10-12 hour days as a super, estimator or PM? No thanks.”

This isn’t anti work, it’s people moving on to better opportunities that fit their lifestyle and goals. Don’t get me wrong, people can make lots of money in construction, but you miss out on a lot.

A lot of millennials and whatever the current generation are watched their parents grind and work extra hours and not get anywhere. They aren’t dumb, they just have different priorities IME.

Because in capitalism, businesses don’t exist to provide employment and compensation, they exist to provide value to owners. I think that needs a substantial reworking, but that eventually fucks up incentives.

Also, the work will expand to consume the resources allotted to it. Kinda like junk in your garage.

you think I wake up cause I love what I do?

I need some contracts signed so I can buy rims and a lift kit gonna set me back 6k

absolultely dying to smoke a bowl but I have an important govt meeting at 200 and don't feel like showing up baked

What do people consider an 8hr workday?

Showing up at 8am and leaving at 5pm? Or showing up at 9am and leaving at 5pm?

I know lots of folks who consider 9-5 an 8hr workday despite taking an hour for lunch/breaks.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

What do people consider an 8hr workday?

Showing up at 8am and leaving at 5pm? Or showing up at 9am and leaving at 5pm?

I know lots of folks who consider 9-5 an 8hr workday despite taking an hour for lunch/breaks.

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jesus you are really doubling down on the shitty middle manager stereotypes. Depends on the state, but hourly employees may get a paid break or two during an eight hour shift. That’s 8 hrs clocked in. Not sure any state does a paid lunch break, but that might happen too. Plenty of those hustling executives count “working” lunches or dinners or golf in their workday hours.

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

A lot of millennials and whatever the current generation are watched their parents grind and work extra hours and not get anywhere. They aren’t dumb, they just have different priorities IME.

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I think there's even another level beyond this: people are starting to look at the world and realize that the future that was traditionally expected for their working life or retirement is just not going to be there. It's not just that the system is rigged (obviously it is), but that the actual physical reality of the world in 20-40 years is going to be, let's be honest, shitty.

Why bust ass during one's best years when the future is going to be all Mad Max regardless? I'm Gen X, and by many measures I've done well for myself, but I'm looking down the road and seeing that nothing i can do now is going to forestall the inevitable, so why not have as much fun as possible while my body and the world are still relatively functional?

An average lifespan works out to about 4000 weeks. Spend them wisely.

If I have to entertain a vendor/client/staff during lunch, I consider it work. Not complaining, mind you, but….

An 8 hour work day in WA means being at work for 8.5 hours. A 30 minute unpaid meal break and two paid rest periods at least 10 minutes long. That’s what the law says. If you’re salaried/exempt it depends on your contract.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

What do people consider an 8hr workday?

Showing up at 8am and leaving at 5pm? Or showing up at 9am and leaving at 5pm?

I know lots of folks who consider 9-5 an 8hr workday despite taking an hour for lunch/breaks.

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for a salaried employee that meets their metrics who the fuck cares what hours they keep?

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Originally Posted by jackattack

for a salaried employee that meets their metrics who the fuck cares what hours they keep?

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In a perfect world…

The reality is often different

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Originally Posted by climberevan

I think there's even another level beyond this: people are starting to look at the world and realize that the future that was traditionally expected for their working life or retirement is just not going to be there. It's not just that the system is rigged (obviously it is), but that the actual physical reality of the world in 20-40 years is going to be, let's be honest, shitty.

Why bust ass during one's best years when the future is going to be all Mad Max regardless? I'm Gen X, and by many measures I've done well for myself, but I'm looking down the road and seeing that nothing i can do now is going to forestall the inevitable, so why not have as much fun as possible while my body and the world are still relatively functional?

An average lifespan works out to about 4000 weeks. Spend them wisely.

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There's something to this. To be fair, I only really know how it impacts my thinking as someone who spends time in the outdoors. But I priortize bucket list items based on how climate risk they are.

Refugio to refugio ski touring trip in the Dolomites? Better be done soon or not at all.
Surf trips? They'll be possible for much longer.

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Originally Posted by climberevan

I think there's even another level beyond this: people are starting to look at the world and realize that the future that was traditionally expected for their working life or retirement is just not going to be there. It's not just that the system is rigged (obviously it is), but that the actual physical reality of the world in 20-40 years is going to be, let's be honest, shitty.

Why bust ass during one's best years when the future is going to be all Mad Max regardless? I'm Gen X, and by many measures I've done well for myself, but I'm looking down the road and seeing that nothing i can do now is going to forestall the inevitable, so why not have as much fun as possible while my body and the world are still relatively functional?

An average lifespan works out to about 4000 weeks. Spend them wisely.

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Another way to look at that is most people want kids, and all of them want their kids to live a better life™ than they did. That's looking less and less likely.

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

There's something to this. To be fair, I only really know how it impacts my thinking as someone who spends time in the outdoors. But I priortize bucket list items based on how climate risk they are.

Refugio to refugio ski touring trip in the Dolomites? Better be done soon or not at all.
Surf trips? They'll be possible for much longer.

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I definitely agree with this sentiment, but I’d suggest that if you are looking for traditional recreation - ski, surf, fishing, mountaineering, etc - most anything is going to be far more crowded or expensive or shitty or all three in the future because childrens lives will be richer in $ but lesser in the constrained resources all of those use

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Originally Posted by jackattack

for a salaried employee that meets their metrics who the fuck cares what hours they keep?

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Yep. Sometimes my folks work 5, sometimes 10. My stakeholders are happy and they get the development time they need to upskill and explore new approaches.
Efficiency should be rewarded, not punished. If you're a butts in seats person, you're saying it's more valuable to spend longer doing something. Ride people's ass when they're doing good work but taking a long lunch and enjoy your talent search.

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

Another way to look at that is most people want kids, and all of them want their kids to live a better life[emoji769] than they did. That's looking less and less likely.

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Other than the Boomers who are going all MJ and saying “fuck them kids” as they put all they can in their pockets and slam the door behind them

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

There's something to this. To be fair, I only really know how it impacts my thinking as someone who spends time in the outdoors. But I priortize bucket list items based on how climate risk they are.

Refugio to refugio ski touring trip in the Dolomites? Better be done soon or not at all.
Surf trips? They'll be possible for much longer.

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Yes, a trip to Italy because you’re worried about climate change. How fucking selfish humans are.

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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

Yes, a trip to Italy because you’re worried about climate change. How fucking selfish humans are.

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Oh please tell me about how you only ever ski under human power and never use a car to access the mountains.

I never said that I'm doing everything I can to reduce my carbon footprint including sacrificing my one life. I said I plan my life around a climate reality I cannot control.

Pretty sure I've lived a lower climate footprint in my life than most the boomers on this board.

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

Oh please tell me about how you only ever ski under human power and never use a car to access the mountains.

I never said that I'm doing everything I can to reduce my carbon footprint including sacrificing my one life. I said I plan my life around a climate reality I cannot control.

Pretty sure I've lived a lower climate footprint in my life than most the boomers on this board.

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I usually carpool on the 20 minute drive to ski, I rarely recreate outside my immediate geographic region.

Selfishly flitting about the globe to check off bucket list items because you have fomo because of climate change is a special kind of affluenza. Cognitive dissonance is real.

I’m not a boomer, I do have a conscience though.

Meh, individual carbon footprints, like quiet quitting outrage, are just things made up and promoted by corporations who are the real culprits

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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

I usually carpool on the 20 minute drive to ski, I rarely recreate outside my immediate geographic region.

Selfishly flitting about the globe to check off bucket list items because you have fomo because of climate change is a special kind of affluenza. Cognitive dissonance is real.

I’m not a boomer, I do have a conscience though.

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Quick search/guesstimate says flight there and back is going to be about 100 gallons fuel/person. Not nothing, but not taking that trip even every few years isn’t going to save the world.

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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

I usually carpool on the 20 minute drive to ski, I rarely recreate outside my immediate geographic region.

Selfishly flitting about the globe to check off bucket list items because you have fomo because of climate change is a special kind of affluenza. Cognitive dissonance is real.

I’m not a boomer, I do have a conscience though.

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Cool. I carpool 80% of my trips with 4+ people to the mtns -- a 45min drive. When I'm solo I sleep overnight in my minivan to save gas and ski multiple days. I've never car commuted in my 20 years of working -- always paying more to live in the city and bike/transit to work. I don't touch my car during the week. I've always worked as a public servant. I do travel internationally by plane once every other year for a big trip.

I guess I have no conscience.

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Originally Posted by Supermoon

Meh, individual carbon footprints, like quiet quitting outrage, are just things made up and promoted by corporations who are the real culprits

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Exactly. It's just a fucking distraction from the real issues.

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Originally Posted by Supermoon

Meh, individual carbon footprints, like quiet quitting outrage, are just things made up and promoted by corporations who are the real culprits

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You mean like airlines and petroleum companies? It’s not outrage to point out irony. We’re all part of the problem.

Back on topic, I’m tired of working hard for the people who benefit the most. They are lucky and opportunistic and we do all the work for them. It’s all about ego and ambition.