Student Loan Forgiveness

No, the goal of attending college is to explore intellectual activities and demonstrate a thoroughness of approach and hard work. It is to deviate from the norm, not be absorbed by the norm.

So, despite hemorrhaging thousands of dollars to pay for my kids college, I'd be in faver of a blanket forgiveness.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

No, the goal of attending college is to explore intellectual activities and demonstrate a thoroughness of approach and hard work. It is to deviate from the norm, not be absorbed by the norm.

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Yeah, but where does ROI come in? It’s all about the Benjamin’s man.

chumps
smoke a bowl read the paper drink coffee start work at 715 sit in front of the computer shuffle paper work around do some estimates and bullshit walk the dog post on tgr
smoke another bowl drive around talk to people call people on the phone meet with customers ruin their dreams and play a game in my head called wondering if they think I'm high or not
took a long time to get to this place in life but it's worth it
because the real struggle today is do I order a skid plate for my tranny or not? that's my real problem I need to address
Then I go ride my bike at 6pm

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Originally Posted by ghosthop

ETA: If you only take STEM classes, you'll never pursue the upper level philosophy that will teach you about a social contract. Shocking that many on this thread are lacking.

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I'm just a STEM major, so please help me understand the social contract. Where I sit, it appears you've placed the cart before the horse. The social contract requires contributors. The STEM majors are vastly improving their ability to contribute. The art history/philosophy double major slinging coffee at Starbucks... I'm puzzled how their studies add much at all to society. Surely their GED was sufficient to sling coffee, and the 5 year/$200k "investment" is more than a lost cause, it's also an opportunity cost in the 5 years of coffee slinging that could have been provided, and the $200k loss that could have been spent on a social purpose.

Whatever we do with student loans, negative social value decisions should be discouraged.

Or maybe I missed your sarcasm. So hard to tell in modern life.

boring

you people need to deal with the wealthy on a daily basis it's good for you to be around people who have money to spend and don't belittle others because of life choices

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Originally Posted by dunfree

are they employees or independent contractors? Shit changes


and btw: the book Adirondack was talking about came out in 1996.

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They’re employees


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Originally Posted by LongShortLong

I'm just a STEM major, so please help me understand the social contract. Where I sit, it appears you've placed the cart before the horse. The social contract requires contributors. The STEM majors are vastly improving their ability to contribute. The art history/philosophy double major slinging coffee at Starbucks... I'm puzzled how their studies add much at all to society. Surely their GED was sufficient to sling coffee, and the 5 year/$200k "investment" is more than a lost cause, it's also an opportunity cost in the 5 years of coffee slinging that could have been provided, and the $200k loss that could have been spent on a social purpose.

Whatever we do with student loans, negative social value decisions should be discouraged.

Or maybe I missed your sarcasm. So hard to tell in modern life.

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sarcasm?

think about all the artsy shit that needs to happen to get a case of macro beer to the store shelves ?

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Originally Posted by schuss

Don't forget how he completely ignores current data (cite: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics...ividing-lines/)
White non-college is +32 R. It's not the base. Let's get back to real discussions now.

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That's why I said "USED to be." Reading comprehension fail.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Yeah, I guess. I don’t think it’s been a particularly political discussion thus far, Montucky’s post aside. It’s stupid that we can’t discuss social programs and policy without it becoming a partisan hack fest, and I don’t think we should back ourselves into that corner.

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Sorry but anything involving government making rules and changes is inherently political. We're talking political but not much name calling yet.

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Yeah, but where does ROI come in? It’s all about the Benjamin’s man.

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Unlike on the highway where the speed check signs are posted, I don't need to be alerted to the sarcasm meter test.

The focus on the immediate return has almost extinguished the kinds of research on which we base our lives, semiconductors, infrared tech, digital audio, etc.

one of our problems as americans is measuring everything solely by financial value

the next societal breakthrough for us as humans is cresting that threshold to show the value of humanism

pursuing ROI is just a sociopathic dive into an anti-human society (evidence? everything we consider wrong with modern society...lol)

please don't label me as the guy who says money isn't of value. But, let's get real about its priority: using it as the only measuring stick is predictably self-harming to our "life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness"

i mean, it's right there in the declaration of independence, right?
"pursuit of happiness"
pursuit of money is a subheading by definition, not the headliner...

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Sorry but anything involving government making rules and changes is inherently political. We're talking political but not much name calling yet.

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To-may-to, to-mah-to. Does every policy, economic, or social discussion have to be included in that umbrella? Whether or not we agree that it’s political, maybe we can keep the asshattery out of it?

And I think society benefits by encouraging (or at least allowing) some folk to pursue art and music and history and philosophy and all that other stuff. Or do we just want the rich people driving those discussions?

I think Kanye would like a word with you.

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

one of our problems as americans is measuring everything solely by financial value

the next societal breakthrough for us as humans is cresting that threshold to show the value of humanism

pursuing ROI is just a sociopathic dive into an anti-human society (evidence? everything we consider wrong with modern society...lol)

please don't label me as the guy who says money isn't of value. But, let's get real about its priority: using it as the only measuring stick is predictably self-harming to our "life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness"

i mean, it's right there in the declaration of independence, right?
"pursuit of happiness"
pursuit of money is a subheading by definition, not the headliner...

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I concur


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Originally Posted by ::: :::

one of our problems as americans is measuring everything solely by financial value

the next societal breakthrough for us as humans is cresting that threshold to show the value of humanism

pursuing ROI is just a sociopathic dive into an anti-human society (evidence? everything we consider wrong with modern society...lol)

please don't label me as the guy who says money isn't of value. But, let's get real about its priority: using it as the only measuring stick is predictably self-harming to our "life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness"

i mean, it's right there in the declaration of independence, right?
"pursuit of happiness"
pursuit of money is a subheading by definition, not the headliner...

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ROI isn’t just money it’s also time, time invested, return over what time. Years ago (back when the millionaire next door was a thing) the data presented to me was architects had a lower starting salary than architectural engineers, but after 30-50 years architects were earning significantly more. What and where does time matter?

on a similar note a relative, now retired, has a divinity degree which is perhaps the shittiest paying degree. He found it greatly fulfilling being a pastor. Does religion not matter?

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Originally Posted by dunfree

on a similar note a relative, now retired, has a divinity degree which is perhaps the shittiest paying degree. He found it greatly fulfilling being a pastor. Does religion not matter?

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Yes (and I'm anti-religion). Kids find video games fulfilling. We still focus on teaching reading, writing, math, etc. There's nothing wrong with teaching a little video games, and we do need a few pro-gamers. For the average kid, focusing on video games will lead them to ruin. We should encourage better choices

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

one of our problems as americans is measuring everything solely by financial value

the next societal breakthrough for us as humans is cresting that threshold to show the value of humanism

pursuing ROI is just a sociopathic dive into an anti-human society (evidence? everything we consider wrong with modern society...lol)

please don't label me as the guy who says money isn't of value. But, let's get real about its priority: using it as the only measuring stick is predictably self-harming to our "life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness"

i mean, it's right there in the declaration of independence, right?
"pursuit of happiness"
pursuit of money is a subheading by definition, not the headliner...

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Plenty of people miss the fact that some work is lucrative simply because no one wants to do it. It doesn't make it better or more useful than other things, just supply and demand. I'd also say that a fair bit of STEM degrees are more at risk to AI than some other disciplines as they boil down to "do special math/software to design to fulfill a certain spec" which is a solvable problem for AI given proper dimensional inputs and training.

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Originally Posted by dunfree

ROI isn’t just money it’s also time, time invested, return over what time. Years ago (back when the millionaire next door was a thing) the data presented to me was architects had a lower starting salary than architectural engineers, but after 30-50 years architects were earning significantly more. What and where does time matter?

on a similar note a relative, now retired, has a divinity degree which is perhaps the shittiest paying degree. He found it greatly fulfilling being a pastor. Does religion not matter?

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if ROI's first implied definition was the humanistic value of something, that'd be a pretty cool shift in our cultural understanding of society


for sure, value exists beyond the financial -- it seems rarely identified when discussing/arguing policy

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Originally Posted by LongShortLong

I'm just a STEM major, so please help me understand the social contract. Where I sit, it appears you've placed the cart before the horse. The social contract requires contributors. The STEM majors are vastly improving their ability to contribute. The art history/philosophy double major slinging coffee at Starbucks... I'm puzzled how their studies add much at all to society. Surely their GED was sufficient to sling coffee, and the 5 year/$200k "investment" is more than a lost cause, it's also an opportunity cost in the 5 years of coffee slinging that could have been provided, and the $200k loss that could have been spent on a social purpose.

Whatever we do with student loans, negative social value decisions should be discouraged.

Or maybe I missed your sarcasm. So hard to tell in modern life.

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“I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Mathematicks and Philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematicks and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, musick, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelaine.”
John Adams, 1780


Edited to add: after a few generations of everyone studying porcelaine and art history, then we need people to study politicks and war again apparently.

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

one of our problems as americans is measuring everything solely by financial value

the next societal breakthrough for us as humans is cresting that threshold to show the value of humanism

pursuing ROI is just a sociopathic dive into an anti-human society (evidence? everything we consider wrong with modern society...lol)

please don't label me as the guy who says money isn't of value. But, let's get real about its priority: using it as the only measuring stick is predictably self-harming to our "life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness"

i mean, it's right there in the declaration of independence, right?
"pursuit of happiness"
pursuit of money is a subheading by definition, not the headliner...

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That is not an American trait it is the defining trait of the modern enlightened and educated human.

Human nature is a bitch and we are hardwired to be greedy, grasping and amoral mammals that happen to be able to speak.

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Originally Posted by dunfree

ROI isn’t just money it’s also time, time invested, return over what time.

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It's also FUN, FRIENDS, FOOTBALL (and other spirit related events), etc.. The entire immersive experience has value that can't be measured or easily transferred/shared with folks who didn't get the privilege of living a few years of real college life.

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Originally Posted by dan_pdx

“I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Mathematicks and Philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematicks and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, musick, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelaine.”
John Adams, 1780


Edited to add: after a few generations of everyone studying porcelaine and art history, then we need people to study politicks and war again apparently.

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art & porcelain: we’ll cash millions in checks and spend centuries celebrating victories and promoting politics and war

tgr: derp

i get this place is anti high culture, but never been to Versailles? It’s a monument of politics. There’s even a gallery of great battles. Get your eyes off the jelly rolled Reubens tits at the museum for a few minutes

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

Every art history major I know has a substantial trust fund, like foundations named after the patriarch level money.

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Good buddy of mine was an art history major. Sold drugs to get through college. Now he’s a project manager for one of the largest construction firms in the Bay Area. I took an art history class my freshman year, was really hard. Like either you got an A+ or failed. Taking that class helped me out a lot in my college career. But now I’m just an electrician at a ski resort.

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Originally Posted by Harry

Post 200 in this thread.

This entire thread misses the whole problem.

When I graduated HS in the mid-70s it really did not matter how much you borrowed or what your major was, or even if you graduated or dropped out, wages were so good you could pay off whatever loans you had in 2-3 years. That’s impossible now.

Income inequality is the problem.


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Truth. Wage stagnation vs inflation since the 70s has totally fucked the middle class. Meanwhile voters have consistently voted against taxes to maintain our country and have voted for politicians that have gutted unions and the social safety net.