The Leg Blaster Thread - are we having fun yet?

If anybody else wants to geek out on the female specific stuff, another Huberman episode - Dr. Stacy Sims: Female-Specific Exercise & Nutrition for Health, Performance & Longevity

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Careful, you're arguing with an actual physiologist :D

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Dropping from a higher height on squat/lunge jumps (because you jumped higher) means you are having to decelerate from a higher speed over the same full ROM. F=MA. it really is that simple.

I'm sure youve heard certified nutritionist argue against the 1st law of thermodynamics too.

Can't say I've seen too many real nutritionists argue that. Regardless, physiology is a much "harder" science than nutrition.

I mean, you're not wrong, but for regular people we're probably talking only a few inches difference in jump height so the velocity difference may not be enough to affect actual outcomes. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'll agree with ptavv that the crux is the goal of the workout, i.e. peak power vs. muscular endurance.

I didn't do a good job drawing out the conclusion of what I said.

It's true there's more eccentric load if you jump higher, that's not really disputable.

The point I wanted to make was that doing slow deliberate reps with high jumps and soft catches is definitely a way to do leg blasters that will emphasize the strength domain of the exercise. Doing faster reps with a bit less height and emphasis on form will emphasize muscular endurance. Doing lots of back to back sets with minimal / no rest will emphasize fatigue resistance, etc.

I wanted to make the broader point that there isn't a "best" way to structure the workout (whether one looks at the structure of the individual reps, the rep/set scheme, the rest time, whatever)… just ones that will emphasize different things. Aligning your goals with how you do the exercise should be the recommendation (maybe, I'd actually recommend you do it in whatever way you find fulfilling to do in order that you do more of it).

All the optimizations of speed, height, etc pale in comparison to the actual benefits of just getting out there and doing more, so for the most part I think a lot of this is arguing about minor margins. I have found that telling people "form is super important to never lose" or "you should be doing this exercise exactly this way" leads to people just doing less exercise and that's why I keep trying to push back against it.

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Originally Posted by ptavv

All the optimizations of speed, height, etc pale in comparison to the actual benefits of just getting out there and doing more, so for the most part I think a lot of this is arguing about minor margins. I have found that telling people "form is super important to never lose" or "you should be doing this exercise exactly this way" leads to people just doing less exercise and that's why I keep trying to push back against it.

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In fewer words, "You can't out-science hard training."

:D

As a tryhard I feel validated.

I am fairly confident that my couch-mtb-couch-hockey-bar-couch routine is peak me.

Supposedly, I have a fully torn acl, torn mcl, and fucked medial meniscus all in my right knee. My workouts are without exterior brace support. For me, I’ve found that form and alignment when working out has been important or I experience mild swelling/discomfortable later or acute pain/discomfort while performing a workout activity. With leg blaster stuff, I’ve tweaked my form and tightened the distance between my feet doing jumping lunges. But I’m still starting low and jumping high. I liken it more to a tele stance than a far extending lunge. I still feel like I’m getting benefits from the exercise.

It doesn't seem like it should need to be clearly stated that the principle "form breakdown isn't a big problem" shouldn't be extrapolated to mean "it's fine to do exercises with garbage form when you're lacking ligaments that provide joint stabilization"

Sorry. That’s not what I was trying to say. I was mainly sharing my experience.

One particular exercise, Bulgarian split squat, it’s only a slight tweak of alignment between discomfort and feeling fine. I visualize/focus pressing/weighting focus on the ball of my big toe and my heel.

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Originally Posted by halliday

I like ankle weights for things like leg lifts while laying flat on the floor. For walking I don't think there is much benefit to weighing your ankles down maybe some extra weight in a well fitting pack or a waits belt? Put the weight where it should be which is a more natural thing for your body. Just my 2 cents.

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I am putting the weight where it should be - where the skis and boots are.

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Originally Posted by heckacali

I am fairly confident that my couch-mtb-couch-hockey-bar-couch routine is peak me.

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I wish this approach still worked for me, fun while it lasted.

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

With leg blaster stuff, I’ve tweaked my form and tightened the distance between my feet doing jumping lunges.

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This helped me a lot, thanks! It went from impossible to really really hard, hahaha.

And I'm doing strict slow walking lunges during warmup now. I can really feel it.

6 minis today.

Was easier than the initial set of 5!

I like to do a ton of knee risers or whatever people call them..sometimes w the ankle weights. Builds abdomen strength a bit too.

Having the muscle memory to lift your skis nimbly, feels as important. Good training for the sidestepping up to the easy access ridgelines.

+ sit ups! having strong hips and core really compensate for my lack of quad strength last 2 seasons

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Originally Posted by baron

I like to do a ton of knee risers or whatever people call them..sometimes w the ankle weights. Builds abdomen strength a bit too.

Having the muscle memory to lift your skis nimbly, feels as important. Good training for the sidestepping up to the easy access ridgelines.

+ sit ups! having strong hips and core really compensate for my lack of quad strength last 2 seasons

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Training hip flexors and tibialis anterior is the hot new thing in athletic performance and knee health from the little i see on social media. Makes sense, most people (myself included) have way undertrained hip flexors and those are actually the first thing to go usually on the first tour of the year. I've always like hanging leg/knee raises for the ab and hip flexor component, and when no one else was around in the gym i might have even pretended to ski a sweet mogul run complete with hitting jumps and tweaking/shiftying out in the air. Honestly, any kind of ab training where you can get close to gymnast levels of slow, full range movement in complete control is gonna be hugely helpful and make you feel like a super athlete.

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Originally Posted by ptavv

if you dispense with dogma, or even properly label it in your mind I don't think this is that counter intuitive

when you get into the range of 90+% a 1RM there's some data that people can have more residual pain with poor form on lifts than better form, but for the most part they just fail the lifts more often

when looking at plyometrics and calisthenics I think it's even more sensible (intuitive? lol) that form breakdown isn't an injury risk… think about basically any activity you're doing that is long and hard. of course your form breaks down and your efficiency/economy get worse at it and it's not disastrous (it'd be a total failure of evolution if normal fatigue made us particularly injury prone); the notion that intentional exercise would be any different strikes me as sort of fanciful. you'll definitely become less efficient as you get fatigued and then drive fatigue accumulation even faster, but most people have the sense / ability to stop the cycle of increasing fatigue -> increasing fatigue accumulation before they totally blow up

I find if I'm not pushing sets/reps to points where my form is imperfect I generally am holding myself back from progress. definitely true with leg blasters. when I push through having to break during the jump lunges on set 4 or 5 and just finish it out I find when I come back next time my gains are much better than if I don't push through it and take the broken sets as a sign I should stop

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I'd cosign all of this. The places where form matters are pretty small. A few such situations:

Heavy lifts where bad form will transfer the weight from strong weightbearing muscle groups to weaker stablizing ones. Squats for example. If you are close to a squat max and you stop arching your back you can put enough weight on stabilizing muscles that they spasm or tear out. Which is bad.

Bad form can cause the intended muscles groups to not get worked. Squats again - many middle aged folks don't fire their glutes very well. Squats and other exercises can remedy that, but not if you are using form that bypasses the glutes.

But otherwise, totally agree. When I'm at my speed/skill limit on skis I'm hitting movement patterns that are pretty darn suboptimal. That's sort've part of the deal. Same with any ball sport. And that' variation of movement is actually super healthy for your body. It's one of the reasons that using different weights and motions to train a muscle group works so well - variation is good. Let's just use squats again as an example - back bar, front bar, trap bar, kettlebell, heels elevated, body weight etc - yer gonna do them all slightly differently. Nothing bad about that.

Finally, I totally agree with whoever said that it's way more important to do stuff than to do stuff "right." It's like arguing about bike seat weight when you have a 20 pound gut. So many of the folks that argue about being perfect with exercises are barely training (not here, just generally.)

Just do stuff. Do it a lot. Use all the parts of your body. Lift heavy stuff with both your arms and legs. Do stuff intensely and be uncomfortable doing it and do stuff where you are comfortable. Do some of the stuff very quickly, and do some of the stuff for a long time. Do stuff that makes you unstable. And get good rest both mentally and physically.

You do that and not only will you be in a fantastic place physically, but you will be fitter than 99% of the population.

I’ve been told, countless times, that my glutes are on fire!! :P

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Originally Posted by EWG

I'd cosign all of this. The places where form matters are pretty small. A few such situations:

Heavy lifts where bad form will transfer the weight from strong weightbearing muscle groups to weaker stablizing ones. Squats for example. If you are close to a squat max and you stop arching your back you can put enough weight on stabilizing muscles that they spasm or tear out. Which is bad.

Bad form can cause the intended muscles groups to not get worked. Squats again - many middle aged folks don't fire their glutes very well. Squats and other exercises can remedy that, but not if you are using form that bypasses the glutes.

But otherwise, totally agree. When I'm at my speed/skill limit on skis I'm hitting movement patterns that are pretty darn suboptimal. That's sort've part of the deal. Same with any ball sport. And that' variation of movement is actually super healthy for your body. It's one of the reasons that using different weights and motions to train a muscle group works so well - variation is good. Let's just use squats again as an example - back bar, front bar, trap bar, kettlebell, heels elevated, body weight etc - yer gonna do them all slightly differently. Nothing bad about that.

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To an extent i agree. But, IMO, there is a pretty large place for training proper movement patterns to carry over to sport- see the elite trainers working with high level volleyball and basketball athletes to groove jumping and landing form to mitigate impact injuries. One of the reasons the final part of my leg-day dynamic warmup is to do one legged hockey jumps with a soft catch and pause is because i am trying to groove stable absorption, and jumping patterns for skiing.

E.g. if you have valgus knee when squatting or lunging, you probably have it while skiing. And it would behoove you from a health and performance perspective to fix the motor patterns and muscle imbalances causing that instead of just accepting it as your "natural movement".


Also, how hard to push in the gym is a fairly subjective issue. I personally, am of the opinion that safety should not be compromised in the gym and injury is to be avoided at nearly all cost in the gym, and pushing beyond your limits should be done playing the sport. the issue with that is sport is a lot less controlled, so pushing past your limit out there probably poses a higher risk of injury than in the controlled environment of the gym. My thought is that pretty much no matter how good of shape you are in you will be pushing past your limit while playing the sport, so it would be best (especially as you age and take longer to recover from injury), to limit how often you are risking injury (I.e. not in the gym). Its a personal equation for each person that goes beyond just black and white statistics on injury rates- its more akin to personal risk tolerance.

I decided to do 12 weeks next summer with a proper heavy lifting program. Need to decide between a crossfit box and a regular gym. Even though I really admire crossfit and think it's sooooo fun I guess I'll go to the regular gym and try not to get myself hurt.

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Originally Posted by shera

I decided to do 12 weeks next summer with a proper heavy lifting program. Need to decide between a crossfit box and a regular gym. Even though I really admire crossfit and think it's sooooo fun I guess I'll go to the regular gym and try not to get myself hurt.

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Neither, find a strength and conditioning or CrossFit style gym but with an open gym format that doesn’t force you in to class.

Yeeaah I don't think they'd have to force me.

I'm just kinda curious what a classic compound heavy (6 reps) program could do for me over 12 weeks. No distractions, perfect discipline. Been a very long time since I've done something like that.

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Originally Posted by shera

Yeeaah I don't think they'd have to force me.

I'm just kinda curious what a classic compound heavy (6 reps) program could do for me over 12 weeks. No distractions, perfect discipline. Been a very long time since I've done something like that.

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i think he was saying to find a crossfit box that allows you to workout at the facility without having you join a class. Many boxes only allow people to workout as part of a class, or if they do have open gym periods, the open gym hours are really shitty and inconvinient. So just make sure you know the logistics.

I would argue that you would see more benefit from any of the standard 5x5 programs than the likely to be suggested 5/3/1... simply because of the relatively short time frame. Either would be good though.

7 minis today.

Was gassed on set 6 and did lunges/jumping lunges out of order (which was momentarily confusing).

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

To an extent i agree. But, IMO, there is a pretty large place for training proper movement patterns to carry over to sport- see the elite trainers working with high level volleyball and basketball athletes to groove jumping and landing form to mitigate impact injuries. One of the reasons the final part of my leg-day dynamic warmup is to do one legged hockey jumps with a soft catch and pause is because i am trying to groove stable absorption, and jumping patterns for skiing.

E.g. if you have valgus knee when squatting or lunging, you probably have it while skiing. And it would behoove you from a health and performance perspective to fix the motor patterns and muscle imbalances causing that instead of just accepting it as your "natural movement".

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I think when you are talking about sport specific movements I agree with you. When my kid is doing tee work I always tell him that 30 well executed swings a day is much more valuable that 150 rushed hacks. Zach Dechant (TCU basecall S&C coach) has a really good book out called "Movement over Maxes", where he talks about how young athletes should focus on mastering the 5 big movement patterns (squat, hinge, upper body push, upper body pull, and core and single leg) before they even begin to use them to gain strength. Mastering the movements alone will help build the foundational athleticism that is typically more important for on field performance. And then over the years as the movements are your natural movements your in gym and on field ceiling is significantly raised. But his book is written for 12-20 year old athletes, I not sure it is still applicable to the 50 year old dentists on this thread.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

i think he was saying to find a crossfit box that allows you to workout at the facility without having you join a class. Many boxes only allow people to workout as part of a class, or if they do have open gym periods, the open gym hours are really shitty and inconvinient. So just make sure you know the logistics.

I would argue that you would see more benefit from any of the standard 5x5 programs than the likely to be suggested 5/3/1... simply because of the relatively short time frame. Either would be good though.

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Yep. Found a gym locally that has CrossFit style classes but open gym via key card is available 95% of the time, so long as you’re okay with staying out of the way of people convulsing on pull-up bars from time to time. I’m able to go in and do my thing whenever it works for me, which is great.

Speaking of gyms, if you’re not doing heavy sled push/pulls at least a few days a week, you are missing out.

Crossfitters, the only thing worse than a vegan…..


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Originally Posted by 2FUNKY

Crossfitters, the only thing worse than a vegan…..


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What about a vegan crossfitter from Texas? That is also a ski instructor.

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

What a vegan crossfitter from Texas? That is also a ski instructor.

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They no doubt drive up the canyon with bald tires.

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Originally Posted by TAFKALVS

Speaking of gyms, if you’re not doing heavy sled push/pulls at least a few days a week, you are missing out.

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I need to find a manual treadmill (w/ resistance and incline settings) to try and mimic sled pulls in my in my tiny garage gym. the "older" i get the more low impact, high force output movements intrigue me- like sled pushes/pulls... but an actual sled just isnt feasible for my situation.

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Originally Posted by 2FUNKY

Crossfitters, the only thing worse than a vegan…..

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I would like to humbly submit nominations on behalf of my fellow engineers, and Californians.

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Originally Posted by alias_rice

I think when you are talking about sport specific movements I agree with you. When my kid is doing tee work I always tell him that 30 well executed swings a day is much more valuable that 150 rushed hacks. Zach Dechant (TCU basecall S&C coach) has a really good book out called "Movement over Maxes", where he talks about how young athletes should focus on mastering the 5 big movement patterns (squat, hinge, upper body push, upper body pull, and core and single leg) before they even begin to use them to gain strength. Mastering the movements alone will help build the foundational athleticism that is typically more important for on field performance. And then over the years as the movements are your natural movements your in gym and on field ceiling is significantly raised. But his book is written for 12-20 year old athletes, I not sure it is still applicable to the 50 year old dentists on this thread.

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I'm 63, and pretty much all I do now is try to improve those movements. Sometimes I get a regular gym schedule going and actually start adding weight to those movements, but then I'm gone a couple weeks and it's back to square 1.

Graduated from minis early today!
Which I have never done before.
Target was 8; felt strong so finished out to 10.

Honestly, the first group of 5 (a couple of weeks ago) was by far the hardest / most sore.
Currently heat fitting some new shells & Zipfits.
Velvet vice, the fit is nice.

:D

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

I would argue that you would see more benefit from any of the standard 5x5 programs.

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Since 5x5 has been brought up....I have a few questions about it. I'm 50 and feel fit for my primary activities of skiing and MTB, but I have let overall strength decline in the past few years due to dealing with a back injury. My PT has told me that I'd be ok to start lifting some heavy weights again. One of my questions is what is the minimum amount of time I should do a 5x5? I feel like I'm riding too much to recover properly to start now, and I don't want it to creep into ski season. Would a month be sufficient? Is it ok to use off days to do all of my normal core/stability exercises or are they supposed to be strict-no weights days off?

As a side question, I'm super hesitant to do traditional deadlifts with my broken back, so I've been using a trap bar. The problem is, I don't feel like I get the good hamstring work with a trap bar, it feels more glutes and quads. Is that inherent or I am pulling wrong?

My back hurts just reading that lol.

IMHO at over 50 I wouldn’t want to do 5x5 again. I lift regularly, did 5x5 on and off for a few years in my late 20’s, again in my mid 30’s then again in my early 40’s. It is VERY taxing on the body and tendons as you lift very heavy.


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Originally Posted by 2FUNKY

IMHO at over 50 I wouldn’t want to do 5x5 again. I left regularly, did 5x5 on and off for a few years in my late 20’s, again in my mid 30’s then again in my early 40’s. It is VERY taxing on the body and tendons as you lift very heavy.


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Hmmm, I definitely appreciate that perspective. Maybe I'm good just doing what I'm doing? Honestly, overall I'm happy with on mountain performance, my primary goal is injury prevention.

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

Since 5x5 has been brought up....I have a few questions about it. I'm 50 and feel fit for my primary activities of skiing and MTB, but I have let overall strength decline in the past few years due to dealing with a back injury. My PT has told me that I'd be ok to start lifting some heavy weights again. One of my questions is what is the minimum amount of time I should do a 5x5? I feel like I'm riding too much to recover properly to start now, and I don't want it to creep into ski season. Would a month be sufficient? Is it ok to use off days to do all of my normal core/stability exercises or are they supposed to be strict-no weights days off?

As a side question, I'm super hesitant to do traditional deadlifts with my broken back, so I've been using a trap bar. The problem is, I don't feel like I get the good hamstring work with a trap bar, it feels more glutes and quads. Is that inherent or I am pulling wrong?

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As 2Funky alluded to, the issue with 5x5 is that it is very intense and taxing and so you both gain strength quickly, but also plateau quickly. 5/3/1 is more intended for years long steady, slow gains. Personally, i like 5x5 because im just maintaining/exercising for most of the year, and then run a 5x5 for 8-12 weeks prior to the start of ski season as a way to peak... and essentially take advantage of Newbie Gains year after year. 5x5 will get you stronger quicker but you will also see progress halt quicker. 5/3/1 variations you will see slower progress, but long term will get you stronger because you can run it for much longer without burning out.


For hammies, with a busted back i would never reccomend deadlifts. I would reccomend single leg RDLs (if your back tolerates that), and also nordic curls (cheap to Mcguyver a setup at home). Keep doing trap bar deadlifts though if your back tolerates it well- still a very underused movement in gyms and i have no idea why it isnt a staple.

I was just reading that I should do 6-8 weeks of mid range (8 reps?) before going heavier. I guess to get the tendons, ligaments, and neurals with the program? Avoid injury that way?

Well I've got til next summer to figure it out. Since we're not talking leg blasters at the moment, I have a different question, about sprints. I like to run sprints on Sunday and hike/climb right after that, really get smoked. But I'm still tired now on Tuesday from it. Is that healthy or do I need to dial back until I can recover in a faster interval?

As to rest periods between sets, there's a good bit of evidence longer is better. Two example papers:
Here

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Twenty-one young resistance-trained men were randomly assigned to either a group that performed a resistance training (RT) program with 1-minute rest intervals (SHORT) or a group that employed 3-minute rest intervals (LONG). […] Maximal strength was significantly greater for both 1RM squat and bench press for LONG compared to SHORT. Muscle thickness was significantly greater for LONG compared to SHORT in the anterior thigh, and a trend for greater increases was noted in the triceps brachii (p = 0.06) as well. Both groups saw significant increases in local upper body muscle endurance with no significant differences noted between groups.

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and

Here:

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Resistance exercise with short (1 min) inter-set rest duration attenuated myofibrillar protein synthesis during the early postexercise recovery period compared with longer (5 min) rest duration, potentially through compromised activation of intracellular signalling.

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

The problem is, I don't feel like I get the good hamstring work with a trap bar, it feels more glutes and quads. Is that inherent or I am pulling wrong?

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Inherent. It's a more upright position so engages the hammies less.

For strength programming, I like Galpin's 3-5 rule: 3-5 exercises, 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps, 3-5 times per week.

That's a huge range of overall volume. Work the higher end for pushing strength development in your off season(s), the lower end for in-season maintenance.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

For hammies, with a busted back i would never reccomend deadlifts. I would reccomend single leg RDLs (if your back tolerates that), and also nordic curls (cheap to Mcguyver a setup at home).

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Concur.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Inherent. It's a more upright position so engages the hammies less.

For strength programming, I like Galpin's 3-5 rule: 3-5 exercises, 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps, 3-5 times per week.

That's a huge range of overall volume. Work the higher end for pushing strength development in your off season(s), the lower end for in-season maintenance.



Concur.

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I have a slightly different take on this but it's pretty close. For lower body during the off season I tend to do 2-3 heavy lifts (squats and deads, plus hip thrusts when I'm not being lazy), 3-4 sets of 5-8 reps, twice per week. Even during the "off season" I'm still highly active with my legs, so any more than that I start to be unable to really recover between the sports activities and the lifting. Sometimes I can fit in 3 leg lift days per week but it's rare. During ski season or during period of heavy sports activity (or lots of backpacking) I'll drop to 1 day per week or none.

For upper body stuff I feel that I'm generally strong enough and I'm just looking to maintain strength, not build. I lift upper body 1-2 times per week and I'm staying pretty static. As an example I'll do 5x5 bench press at a certain weight. Sometimes that will be easy, sometimes I can't quite get done, and when I slip like that I up the days a little till I'm back on that plateau. Any more upper body bulk will hurt rather than help, and I'm fairly strong, so it's just maintaining that.

So maybe it's just a personally modified version of what dan's talking about. But the point is to tailor what you are doing to your situation. My lovely wife is quite strict about her lifting, and I htink that leads to some negative situations, like going into a ski trip with gased legs. She getting more flexible about it...

Single leg RDL (with weights) on an upside buso has really helped my hamstrings, glutes, and knee stability.