Antiwork

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Originally Posted by neckdeep

Sure, its easy to mythologize bootstraping but the reality is very different in a society that will condemn you to poverty if you have bad teeth and a funny accent.

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Not really fair to the English is it.

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Originally Posted by Mazderati

Not really fair to the English is it.

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On the one hand, thats fucking hilarious.

On the other hand, having straight teeth and a posh RP accent is the norm for wealthy kids in Britain

Attachment 426364

The possibility of a railroad strike is in the news but not as much as I would expect. I didn't think it had a chance but Sanders just blocked a GOP proposal to prevent a strike. And, part of congress may be across the pond at a funeral until Monday. The fear-mongering is already ramping up.

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Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) on Wednesday blocked a Republican request to force railroad workers and companies to accept the recommendations of a nonpartisan panel to avoid a strike that would impact millions of Americans.

Sanders stood up on the floor to block the speedy approval of the resolution — introduced by Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pension Commission Ranking Member Richard Burr (R-N.C.) and Sen. Roger Wicker (R-Miss.) — that would require railroad workers to adopt the outlines of a labor deal.

Sanders argued that railroad companies are making huge profits and should start treating their workers more fairly.
“The rail industry has seen huge profits in recent years and last year alone made a record breaking $20 billion in profit,” Sanders said. “Last year the CEO of CSX made over $20 million in total compensation while the CEOs of Union Pacific and Norfolk Southern made over $40 million each in total compensation.”
By contrast, Sanders said that workers in the freight rail industry are “entitled to a grand total of zero sick days.”
GOP senators, however, say their resolution would avoid a “disastrous” rail strike, which could freeze rail travel and freight shipment around the country.

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https://thehill.com/policy/finance/o...t-rail-strike/


For strongly worded letter writers: https://www.congressweb.com/SMART_Transportation/

How fortunate for rail management that congress intervenes. I'm sure that backstop wasn't a factor in negotiations. :rolleyes2

I think if congress is going to force workers back from a strike, they should also tax all profits at 100% for the rail companies until a contract is in place.

Fuck the railroads and their (lack of) sick leave policy.

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Originally Posted by old goat

Fuck the railroads and their (lack of) sick leave policy.

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They do actually have a sick leave policy, it’s just a little fucked:

https://jabberwocking.com/whos-got-t...ailroad-talks/

And this explains the reason the railroads want to keep it this way:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022...ilroading.html

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

They do actually have a sick leave policy, it’s just a little fucked:

https://jabberwocking.com/whos-got-t...ailroad-talks/

And this explains the reason the railroads want to keep it this way:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022...ilroading.html

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Left unsaid: Rail workers receive anywhere from 25-39 paid days off already.

24 percent raise, bonuses and capped healthcare.

You do that well this year? Doubt it.

This is a net win for rail workers. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

This is a net win for rail workers.

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As always, money isn’t everything — except to the shareholders

Isn’t pto in one pot pretty standard for a lot of companies? They get 5-8 weeks of pto if what AdironRider posted is true. I was reading an article on AP about this and one of their complaints isn’t being able toget time off on short notice after a schedule is posted. This was for things like a child’s birthday or an adult child’s post grad ceremony. I’m not getting time off at the hospital after the schedule is posted unless someone will cover my shift and that’s up to me. The rail workers also have a very good short term disability plan that kicks in after 3(?) days of pto. This type of package is pretty standard in a CBA.


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Originally Posted by AdironRider

Left unsaid: Rail workers receive anywhere from 25-39 paid days off already.

24 percent raise, bonuses and capped healthcare.

You do that well this year? Doubt it.

This is a net win for rail workers. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

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Who needs timely medical care or the ability to call out sick when you get a $1,000 annual bonus. After all, these guys do better than Adironrider does…

Edit to add - I was shocked to see conductors make $40ih dollars per hour. I’d of thought they would be in the $70-90 range. That’s crazy for that job.

You get over two months paid time off?

I’m not complaining about my pay scale, but this narrative that rail workers got screwed with a 24 percent raise, bonuses, and capped health care costs just doesn’t jive with the reality of their new deal.

They are inherently better off, and significantly so, than they were before. That is a good thing for labor.

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

You get over two months paid time off?

I’m not complaining about my pay scale, but this narrative that rail workers got screwed with a 24 percent raise, bonuses, and capped health care costs just doesn’t jive with the reality of their new deal.

They are inherently better off, and significantly so, than they were before. That is a good thing for labor.

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Frankly, I’m not sure how much time off I get. It’s more than I can justify taking to effectivly lead my group, but I have the flexibility to go do things like ski or MTB without taking time off if my schedule allows. But I’ve never really had to put off medical treatment due to my schedule.

Did you read the articles? The reason they don’t want time off is they have cut workers to the absolute bare minimum so there is no flexibility. This is bad for everyone except Railroad shareholders.

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

Left unsaid: Rail workers receive anywhere from 25-39 paid days off already.

24 percent raise, bonuses and capped healthcare.

You do that well this year? Doubt it.

This is a net win for rail workers. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

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Not exactly left unsaid if you read the first link:

”First off, the railroad carriers have agreed to a 24% wage increase over five years (from 2020 to 2024). That sounds pretty good, but I will bore you as usual with my admonition that you should always account for inflation:https://jabberwocking.com/wp-content..._2020_2024.jpgThe solid line is actual inflation. The dashed line is an estimate of future inflation from the Congressional Budget Office. It amounts to 21% over the life of the contract, which means workers are getting a real increase of 3%. That's 0.6% per year. Both sides have agreed to this, but color me unimpressed anyway.¹”

and it talks about current sick leave policy too.

8 of 12 union had agreed to the new contract.

Sick leave that can only be used if you have the foresight to plan on being sick is odd, however they can use personal days for unexpected illnesses.

I’m not arguing for or against them taking the contract, just trying to give context, mainly that the narrative that they don’t get sick time isn’t really true.

Just based on the guys I know locally, the railroaders do just fine. They're making a solid 6 figure salary with full benefits, which is about 50% more than nurses locally, and close to 100% more than teachers. And that's for a job that requires no degree or education, isn't particularly dangerous, and isn't particularly physical.

I can't think of another job that doesn't require any education or strong skill set where you can make as much money with great benefits. And the downside is the schedule, which is why they're paid a lot.

They want a great schedule? Sure, then let's adjust the pay so that it's in line with other unskilled laborers in area. Which is going to be a fairly massive paycut.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

Just based on the guys I know locally, the railroaders do just fine. They're making a solid 6 figure salary with full benefits, which is about 50% more than nurses locally, and close to 100% more than teachers. And that's for a job that requires no degree or education, isn't particularly dangerous, and isn't particularly physical.

I can't think of another job that doesn't require any education or strong skill set where you can make as much money with great benefits. And the downside is the schedule, which is why they're paid a lot.

They want a great schedule? Sure, then let's adjust the pay so that it's in line with other unskilled laborers in area. Which is going to be a fairly massive paycut.

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On the flip side, maybe teachers and nurse need better union representation?

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

On the flip side, maybe teachers and nurse need better union representation?

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Absolutely this. They are both criminally underpaid, so we should bring them up to other workers’ level not the other way around.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

Just based on the guys I know locally, the railroaders do just fine. They're making a solid 6 figure salary with full benefits, which is about 50% more than nurses locally, and close to 100% more than teachers. And that's for a job that requires no degree or education, isn't particularly dangerous, and isn't particularly physical.

I can't think of another job that doesn't require any education or strong skill set where you can make as much money with great benefits. And the downside is the schedule, which is why they're paid a lot.

They want a great schedule? Sure, then let's adjust the pay so that it's in line with other unskilled laborers in area. Which is going to be a fairly massive paycut.

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:rolleyes2

It takes a lot of drama to distract everyone from noticing that the status quo serves both rail ownership and labor at the expense of everyone else. Getting an act of Congress to help cement that has to feel like the cherry on top.

Anyone think that the boon in travel nurse contracts might effectively be a strike but some nurses haven’t figured it out yet? Those that are willing to strike on their own are making a shit ton more than those waiting for someone to organize for them. No dues sucking middlemen required. Unless you count the travel nurse companies who figured out how to profit without convincing everyone to join a “union”. Just those who like making a lot of money and working less.

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Originally Posted by jono

It takes a lot of drama to distract everyone from noticing that the status quo serves both rail ownership and labor at the expense of everyone else. Getting an act of Congress to help cement that has to feel like the cherry on top.

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Did you read the article above about the monopolization of rail carriers, their huge cuts to the workforce, and how the extra profits are going to shareholders, not to lower pricing?

Basically they have raised profits, slashed their work force expenses, and kept it all. That’s not on labor.

Well their existing labor costs just went up by a third when you include healthcare which undercuts the whole greed angle.

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Originally Posted by Supermoon

Did you read the article above about the monopolization of rail carriers, their huge cuts to the workforce, and how the extra profits are going to shareholders, not to lower pricing?

Basically they have raised profits, slashed their work force expenses, and kept it all. That’s not on labor.

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I did read that. The benefit for labor comes in toast's post. I'm a little bit familiar with that side of it, even though it wasn't fully detailed in the article. The reason ownership is willing to make the concessions they do is that the union contracts create barriers to entry that help the owners capitalize on their monopoly, at society's expense.

For example, railroads could have self-driving cars. They pretty much do already. If the rails were broken up and deregulated in the same way that AT&T once was we could see systems implemented that could manage smaller trains more efficiently, including passenger trains, rail-ferries and road/rail hybrid vehicles that linked into (and took direction from) a computerized system. Or imagine your own innovation--the barrier to most any of them is 0% technology and 100% human, with the laws and contracts making up the majority of the obstacles.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

On the flip side, maybe teachers and nurse need better union representation?

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I'm sure it varies quite a bit by location, but at least around here, nurses do reasonably well. Teacher's could use a pay bump though.

But, locally, the railroaders are making more than most other professions. They're on par with a bunch of jobs that require many, many years of schooling.

Every job has its downsides or obstacles to employment. The pay is commensurate with those downsides / obstacles. If you remove the downsides / obstacles, the pay gets adjusted accordingly. Railroaders are trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Pretty hard to make an argument that people who are so critical to the national economy that Congress steps in to fix their contract dispute shouldn’t be getting paid really well.

Also seems like another angle Congress should take on this should be to mandate staffing levels that allow for people to get sick or go to the doctor on short notice if their short term absence would cause issues with the larger economy.

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Pretty hard to make an argument that people who are so critical to the national economy that Congress steps in to fix their contract dispute shouldn’t be getting paid really well.

Also seems like another angle Congress should take on this should be to mandate staffing levels that allow for people to get sick or go to the doctor on short notice if their short term absence would cause issues with the larger economy.

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They make about 50% more than long haul truckers for the same basic function. Except they don't have to steer.

Railroaders will be replaced by robots within 20 years.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

They make about 50% more than long haul truckers for the same basic function. Except they don't have to steer.

Railroaders will be replaced by robots within 20 years.

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Then Congress should have let them figure out their own contract dispute.

I’m guessing all the ancillary positions like maintenance and track building won’t be replaced by robots.

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Then Congress should have let them figure out their own contract dispute.

I’m guessing all the ancillary positions like maintenance and track building won’t be replaced by robots.

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Meh. I'm pretty fine with congress stepping in to keep a small subset of already overpaid people from tanking the economy even worse than it already is.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

I'm sure it varies quite a bit by location, but at least around here, nurses do reasonably well. Teacher's could use a pay bump though.

But, locally, the railroaders are making more than most other professions. They're on par with a bunch of jobs that require many, many years of schooling.

Every job has its downsides or obstacles to employment. The pay is commensurate with those downsides / obstacles. If you remove the downsides / obstacles, the pay gets adjusted accordingly. Railroaders are trying to have their cake and eat it too.

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I agree. I was stirring the pot. Is there a barrier to being a railroader? Seems like a lot of people not making what they make could apply and increase the labor pool of f it’s that great of a job. Or is there a downside hence the high comp? Is their union that powerful and is blocking applicants? $100k+, no education requirement, 20 some days of PTO, seems like there should be some negatives.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

Meh. I'm pretty fine with congress stepping in to keep a small subset of already overpaid people from tanking the economy even worse than it already is.

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I just don’t see how they can be overpaid if all of the sudden they left the economy tanks. People rationalize large tech and finance salaries with how much value they generate for the companies.

The underlying fact seems to be that these people can not be replaced by unskilled labor on short notice via temping people or the companies wouldn’t have chosen short notice sick leave as the hill to die on.

Edit- also, what other industries should Congress step into and set wages and benefits?

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Originally Posted by toast2266

J.

They want a great schedule? Sure, then let's adjust the pay so that it's in line with other unskilled laborers in area. Which is going to be a fairly massive paycut.

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not trying to pick a fight but this attitude towards low paid unskilled labor is what is causing people to not want to work
so if you have no skills in life or refuse to attain any you deserve low wages is how I read that

sitting in a chair at a computer is dangerous
putting your hand where someone is setting a log is dangerous (ask me how I know)

people have given up because they don't want to slave away for low wages that get them nowhere they rather sit in moms house picking their poison: alcohol, pills, internet, drugs, over eating, or all of the above they rather have nothing in life than go work for bottom dollar wages that will end up providing them very little

while people like me rape the tax system make money off of others hard work yet toil away 50-60 hrs a week managing shit

every time they talk about affordable housing where I live its always about the nurses teachers and firefighters it irks be how about the poor fuck serving food or cleaning up after people

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Originally Posted by toast2266

Railroaders will be replaced by robots within 20 years.

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I thought that 16 years ago. One conversation with a newly retired engineer and the ensuing rabbit hole disabused me of that: union contracts have been preventing it for a long time and that continues. And continuing to pay a small labor cost to maintain an effective monopoly is money well spent. Notice that while there are 7 major carriers the union solidarity helps turn the whole country into a bloc. Union contracts aren't the only wall protecting the overall monopoly, but they're a useful piece of it. Block (or limit) innovation and you can block disruption and protect your rent seeking investment.

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Also seems like another angle Congress should take on this should be to mandate staffing levels that allow for people to get sick or go to the doctor on short notice if their short term absence would cause issues with the larger economy.

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This^^^

but hey productivity levels are at an all time low I know exactly what I should get out of one persons labor per 8 hr day and I'm not getting it anymore
so why should the gov't step in and make people even lazier?

I'm just playing devils advocate

but yes 1 month pto sick pay should be the norm instead chipolte employees show up sick as a dog to slave away for peanuts in turn getting the customer sick
who wants to pay into the tax system for a bill like family medical leave?????? cuts into profits you know

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Originally Posted by toast2266

They make about 50% more than long haul truckers for the same basic function. Except they don't have to steer.

Railroaders will be replaced by robots within 20 years.

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In that case, they should get as much money as they possibly can to have a reserve for the future. They are essential at this moment. Milk it. It's not like they will keep their jobs even if they work at minimum wage when automation arrives. I agree, truckers should get at least 50% more.

RE travelling nurses and milking it. There's an interesting parallel in Canada. Nurses are quitting their full-time positions and becoming travelling nurses for way more money. That creates more demand for travelling nurses. Power to them, but unfortunately, this undermines our public health care system. There are powers at play that push for the opportunity to crash the public health care system and start a private healthcare system.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

I agree. I was stirring the pot. Is there a barrier to being a railroader? Seems like a lot of people not making what they make could apply and increase the labor pool of f it’s that great of a job. Or is there a downside hence the high comp? Is their union that powerful and is blocking applicants? $100k+, no education requirement, 20 some days of PTO, seems like there should be some negatives.

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I think the main barrier is just that there aren't a ton of positions available. Locally, whenever the railroad opens up hiring, pretty much every highschool delinquent is vying for the limited number of openings. Not many other jobs where you can make $85k with full benefits, right of highschool, and where you get full salary while being trained.

And then, a few years in, those same people realize that the schedule kinda sucks. Which brings us to our present situation...

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

I’m guessing all the ancillary positions like maintenance and track building won’t be replaced by robots.

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Humans will be needed in very limited numbers down the road. I just saw a video the other day of a machine that replaces RR tracks 100% by itself. Get another machine out there prepping the gravel bed for the track and you'll have track installations going in with a couple of humans watching just in case.
I expect my job to be mostly machine automated in the next 10 years, with the odd human there to answer questions as needed.
So many jobs will be automated in the next 50 years, I am not sure what industries will be safe.

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Originally Posted by fastfred

not trying to pick a fight but this attitude towards low paid unskilled labor is what is causing people to not want to work
so if you have no skills in life or refuse to attain any you deserve low wages is how I read that

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You don't deserve a low wage. You deserve a wage that is commensurate with the obligations and difficulties of the job. Right now, railroaders are making twice as much as the guys pounding nails at the construction site. Part of the reason for that is because the railroaders have a shitty schedule. If you make their schedule not shitty anymore, then there isn't any reason for the premium on their salary.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

You don't deserve a low wage. You deserve a wage that is commensurate with the obligations and difficulties of the job. Right now, railroaders are making twice as much as the guys pounding nails at the construction site. Part of the reason for that is because the railroaders have a shitty schedule. If you make their schedule not shitty anymore, then there isn't any reason for the premium on their salary.

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Easy solution: let the railroad use automation to fill in whenever someone wants off on short notice.

When the unions are willing to allow that one I'll side with them 100%.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

You don't deserve a low wage. You deserve a wage that is commensurate with the obligations and difficulties of the job. Right now, railroaders are making twice as much as the guys pounding nails at the construction site. Part of the reason for that is because the railroaders have a shitty schedule. If you make their schedule not shitty anymore, then there isn't any reason for the premium on their salary.

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If the construction crew doesn’t show up it doesn’t fuck the entire downstream economy and supply chain. Their value per hour worked is way higher to the overall system than a nail pounder.

Evidence for this? Congress just stepped in a legislatively mandated their contract so as to not screw the entire economy currently running at $25 trillion GDP.