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He so loves this topic, looking forward to the reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal Olson
I couldn’t dream up a better synergy of ski design/ production/ small run badassery than Heritage Lab.
Apparently I need to move somewhere to be able to use anything other than the R87
Good on ya mate
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It's only a 185, you should do it!Quote:
Originally Posted by snowaddict91
Charlie don't surf, the r99 is replacing my thrashed superbros, seems like a good way to avoid remounting for your new bsl. [emoji16]
It's more the 120 waist that I don't need. It just doesn't snow here that much. Plus I have 2 pairs of OG bodacious in the garage still [emoji57]Quote:
Originally Posted by abraham
Ok.... so... wood and laminates.Quote:
Originally Posted by ticketchecker
First off, a few basics:
- Stiffness is a measure of a materials return to original form
- Strength measures how much stress it can take before it deforms permanently or breaks
- Hardness measures a material’s resistance to surface deformation / penetration
Wood is made up of Cellulose (Fiber) as well as Lignin and Pentosan polymers. Softwoods, in general, have higher cellulose, higher lignin, and lower pentosan compared to hardwoods.
In a ski, the laminate actually accounts for most of the ski's "stiffness", or rather, the gap between the laminates does. Especially in carbon skis, the core is really a spacer between laminates more than a structural member itself. The further the laminates are apart, the stiffer the structure (if the same materials). This is why some full carbon skis are so thin... they would be unbendable if they were thicker.
Hardwoods, and their higher levels of Pentosan, are why they are better at screw retention. Same logic as trying to drive a screw into a piece of Oak vs a piece of Pine. The harder wood can take more force over the surface of a screw without the thread stripping. This is why an old Igneous ski could take 7 mounts and still be fine, but some new skis can only take a couple.
Another key factor in ski ride and snow feel is how good the ski is at absorbing vibration. The harder the wood, the broader the frequency range it can absorb (same logic applies to VDS rubber, which can essentially absorb all frequency ranges), compared to a soft wood like Paulownia that cannot absorb very many frequencies at all, since it has high cellulose (fiber) content that transmits the vibration. Bamboo is a grass not a wood, but Bamboo in the core is essentially fiber and resin mixed together, and the resins used also create a really great vibration sink.
This same logic applies to laminates, where Carbon does not absorb much vibration, but the right kinds of fiberglass can absorb a ton. The interesting contrast is Metal, which longitudinally (tip to tail) isn't stiff, and it... well... is metal, so it vibrates, so it's not a natural energy sink. But what metal does is add a ton of weight that serves to slow vibrations down, while actually adding rebound, and increase torsional rigidity. So metal skis are damp because they (should) weight a bunch, but a metal ski should be (more) lively than a similar weight fiberglass ski, because you are essentially putting a leaf spring into the ski. Newtonian physics matter. Weight matters. F=MA. Heavy skis kill chop.
With respect to skis losing stiffness (rebound) over time, that is generally when they are either (a) fairly soft to start (b) made from too light of a laminate or (c) specced with too soft of a wood that breaks down. The reality is the famous offenders combine all three of these factors.
Specifically, I think Maple is an amazing core material for super damp charing skis, but really require metal to add some life, or they can just feel like sleds. But there are other great core options too. Poplar is a really good choice if it is paired to a heavy duty (ie 27oz+) fiberglass and/or paired with a 50% bamboo core, or is just insanely stiff (like a Faction Thirteen), since it will feel more lively, especially on wide freeride skis that are more rockered and shorted effective edges. Unfortunately most skis that spec poplar go for too light of a fiberglass (<24oz), and neuter the things. Paulownia, IMO, is really only to be mixed 50/50 with Poplar, and only for Carbon skis designed for untracked snow.
It is actually pretty easy to make a Maple/Metal ski too stiff and feel boardy, but it is almost impossible to make a Poplar ski too stiff, but really easy to Poplar skis too soft. In particular, when using Poplar, one must use a much heavier fiberglass than is common. There are lots of other woods (Fir, Ash, etc) that all have their own flavors, but are pretty uncommon since sourcing them can be challenging and expensive. Pretty rambling, happy to answer specific questions, but hopefully entertaining for some :D
Interesting and enlightening.
^^^
Awesome explanation of ski materials and how it affects ski feel.
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Interesting. I'm a bit surprised it's challenging to get/use other types of wood. Maybe I have an poor understanding of the amount of wood used to build skis. Or where the costs and multipliers come into the question. Are skis every made at scale with larch? It's such a common tree in Europe, I've wondered about that before.
Yeah, I know Moment uses Ash, DPS uses Aspen, Kastle uses Silver Fir, etc, which are all in the range between Poplar and maple in density. Beech is commonly specced as a stringer to beef up lighter woods as well (its almost twice as dense as Aspen). Maple sits right in between the density of Beech and lighter woods like aspen and poplar.Quote:
Originally Posted by abraham
There is also an element of sustainability, that that is where wood like Aspen and Poplar win... they are just fast growing compared to many other woods...
Edit- my main point was to share thinking about core and laminate as a system. Lighter cores mix well with bamboo and like heavier fiberglass. Metal skis like maple.
"The BMX105HP is like a skinny lotus 120 with kastle construction. It’s a super cool and unique ski, and I have plans for it in the future, but it isn’t referenced yet"
Marshall... whats the story on this?
On Kastle fx116 having gone thinner that the BMX 128... which was just a truck of a ski. If I lived somewhere with more alpine I'd still have it.
Really interested in the idea. Coming in 190/200?
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Marshal hasn't steered me wrong with RPCs and Spoons - order in just before the bell for 200cm C120s and 188cm 99s!
I think Keith at Praxis uses Maple and Ash in his heavy hitter cores
Then Maple Ash and Aspen in the Enduro core
And Maple Ash with Paulownia for his ultra light cores
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I’m excited for my R87 and C138’s
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So awesome to read that! Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal Olson
The discourse on ski materials was super interesting, thanks for that Marshal!
One follow up - the 2010s vintage Kastles stand out in my mind for being uniquely damp and planted. I can’t A/B a new example of those against other new skis, so perhaps there is a bit of fog of time influencing that judgment, but I think you said you still seem to like the BMX 105 HP so maybe at least we share the same delusion.
Is there something about the BMX105 HP or Kastle MX line that should give them a hard to replicate feel? Basically, what if anything, are they doing differently from the R99? How would either compare to a Dynastar Legend Pro? Is it the VDS rubber or something?
Thanks for confirming! I couldn't remember his layout. Makes sense, those are nice specs!Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarhey
Cheers man! Definately much more to come, but my main focus right now is getting this first offering delivered! Once it is fully on track and over the line I will start looking at the next offerings!Quote:
Originally Posted by UkBCyeti
Freeride and Falline skis to come.
OK Folks!
Order update time. I just locked production on the Raceroom skis this evening. That means the price on those went up $100 going forward to $799 each. There is only 1-3 pair of each model/length remaining in this round.
I am waiting to hear back on locking the Carbon and Freeride skis. I will lock volumes on those this week for sure, so the price will go up as soon as I do.
Thank you so much to everyone encouraging this undertaking. I really appreciate the kind words, and immense gratitude to everyone taking the leap, ordering skis, and backing the endeavor.
Can't wait to get everyone on snow!
I am super interested in this ski tooQuote:
Originally Posted by UkBCyeti
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The Larch. That tree cracks me upQuote:
Originally Posted by abraham
https://youtu.be/mBcTXBhYzfM
Just got this in my insta feed:
Attachment 404043
And yeah we definitely want you to succeed
Wow. That’s spendy.
What’s up with the extra eighty cents??
I think he uses the descriptor "hard maple" for the maple used in the coresQuote:
Originally Posted by Marshal Olson
FYI: ‘hard maple’ is sugar maple - as in the tree who’s sap is used to make maple syrup. Soft maple refers to a couple different species of maple. Hard/sugar maple is more dense than soft maple.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarhey
https://www.baillie.com/hardwood-lum...and-soft-maple
Didn’t 333 skis use maple syrup in their laminates?
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong
Quote:
Originally Posted by frorider
It's the same shape as a 6" Yammamoto Senko, watermelon w black flake pls.
Buy 2 pair from heritage for the same priceQuote:
Originally Posted by frorider
Trying to resist ordering the r87. Spending too much lately as the move to the ice coast has required shifting goals.
Thinking 182cm version for 5'9" 185#. Never skied anything less then a 176cm and that was only once. Current firm snow ski, and shortest, is Bonafide 98 in a 180. Was planning in an fis SL for groomer workouts and a GS for speed. Thinking the r87 could replace the gs want with speed on piste and versatility off piste.
Tell me I'm wrong Marshall.
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Bwaaaa HaaaaaaaQuote:
Originally Posted by jackattack
So true.
Fuck DPS.
They sold out. Jumped the shark. Fired Stephan Drake. The one guy that revolutionized soft snow drift skiing. After Mckonkey started the ball rolling. This heritage project makes me happy.
Ahoy mate!Quote:
Originally Posted by skinipenem
so here is my honest .02
it sounds like you just made a big move. I am honored and flattered you are looking at Heritage Lab.
But my honest feedback is that you should date a few skis before getting married to something. Find some cheap revolt 87s. They will make slush, bumps, trees, and jibby nonsense all super fun. Try some Brahma’s or monsters, to play with size and preferred radius on the freepiste chargers.
the reason I say this is that there just isn’t a replacement for a proper GS ski!
So my advice is to Get a taste for what you like in your new location first. It’ll be different than what you are used to. At first glance, I’d say at least consider (test drive) a shorter ski. Then invest into what you land on for your preference.
hope that helps!
Marshal, opinion needed on the latest email. Thinking of tapering the 13s to 10cm,just to prove a point. Please stop me.
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Tyx man. Good advice!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal Olson
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Got an email from DPS pushing their limited powderworks version of the 138 - for a mere $1400.
Buy from Marshal instead!
https://www.dpsskis.com/products/pow...sjrU%3D.XzMRZq
My $0.02 I run a FIS SL most days on the hill EC. Just buy the r87! Even w open hill midweek, I prefer a 183cm/25m/+1cm ski way more than my 188 & almost never use my 193 GS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal Olson
The r87 will be replacing 195 Superbro and 184 R:ex for me. The atomics don't have much base or edges left after 17 years, and the type of skiing the 195s crave isn't always appropriate or appreciated, or even sustainable by my body for a full day.
Looking forward to trying them out!
Whoa ... How did I miss this?
Damn straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaijin
I'm order 1085 ($250 deposit).Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal Olson
Hoping to secure a 182 R87.
All the models are tempting, but 182 R87 fits best.
Super cool endeavour.
:D
Trigger pulled on 202cm FR138. Order #1086 (paid in full).
Man, I tried SO HARD to resist for SO LONG, but finally caved for all the right reasons. :)
Am I the only order for this ~2680g unicorn?
If Marshall doesn't even build a 2nd pair, then of course I will mount Jester Demos and arrange for Marshall and his "test team" to ski them and form ideas about how they might tweak future releases from Heritage Lab. :)
Heck, Marshal fits my 314 BSL, so next winter I could roadtrip to him with a bunch of skis from my MegaQuiver, if he wants to do any direct A/B Comparisons to his new Heritage ski models. Will be fun for me to compare this 202cm FR138 head-to-head to my Kuro 195, Gigawatt 195, Prior A-Star 193, Pon2oon 189, Protest 196, Mutant 192, Lotus138 192 rocker0, PowderBoard 195, etc.
HUGE THANKS to Marshal for pursuing "old" tried-and-true performance characteristics. And also, thanks to the many generous maggots who have hooked me up many times, which inspires a cheap-ass bastard like me to support first runs like this. (I also bought the first runs of DPS and Praxis, but other than that, I'm a cheap-ass bastard who tries to buy only cheap well-used skis.)
STOKED to support Heritage Lab any way I can! :)
.
You’re not alone my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin I
I don’t need another 202 138.
But when he said free ride damp build, I couldn’t say no.
Nice! It's a good thing just to have more huge, heavy unicorns roaming the Earth, even if they all don't eventually find their way into my quiver. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Shot
Today, the Heritage website indicates most models/lengths are sold out, EXCEPT the 188cm R99 and 185cm R120 are still available for order. Go buy the final remaining models, maggots!
https://heritagelabskis.com/products...41344513540284
https://heritagelabskis.com/products/r120
.
are the carbons and FR skis completely sold out for this run? or are you just gonna bump the prices up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal Olson
hoping to lockdown some 120s
Marshal's website still shows the original $699 price for the Carbon & Freerides, whereas the price for the Racerooms are up $100. Fortune Favours The Brave -> get your order in ;)