Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

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Originally Posted by dan_pdx

Also potentially interested in Option 1. Do you have an idea of what you might charge?

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Obviously:. Attachment 386505

It's so interesting how perceived performance can be a terrible indicator. I didn't feel all that fast today up or down but the clock told a different story. It's a good reason to record every ride.

Or my phone's GPS is wildly inaccurate and I'm putting way too much stock in the data....

Here's a fantastic basic rundown of nutrition for athletes. The guest is a dietitian and pro cyclist.
https://pca.st/episode/a57a8fad-460f...3-498049605714

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Originally Posted by XtrPickels

I've been toying with the idea of taking on a few coaching clients.
There'd be two options.

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Super late reply on this, but I'd be into option 1. Feels like I know enough about training to handle short-term blocks, but not enough to deal with a 3-6 month offseason where I'll be skiing/touring + wanting to race an occasional zwift race too.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Or my phone's GPS is wildly inaccurate and I'm putting way too much stock in the data....

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Have you ever run a head unit + strava on your phone at the same time? I did recently and had differences in mileage/vert which was to be expected. I also had a pretty significant difference in my total times on strava segments too. Which makes no sense since I'd assume time is pretty fixed compared to a spotty GPS signal for vert. Def made me think I'm putting way too much faith in devices.

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

Have you ever run a head unit + strava on your phone at the same time? I did recently and had differences in mileage/vert which was to be expected. I also had a pretty significant difference in my total times on strava segments too. Which makes no sense since I'd assume time is pretty fixed compared to a spotty GPS signal for vert. Def made me think I'm putting way too much faith in devices.

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I have not run a head unit. When I repeat rides I've seen some decent differences in vert on occasion, but it's normally pretty close and mileage is always right on. On OABs the tracks usually line up pretty well.

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

Super late reply on this, but I'd be into option 1. Feels like I know enough about training to handle short-term blocks, but not enough to deal with a 3-6 month offseason where I'll be skiing/touring + wanting to race an occasional zwift race too.



Have you ever run a head unit + strava on your phone at the same time? I did recently and had differences in mileage/vert which was to be expected. I also had a pretty significant difference in my total times on strava segments too. Which makes no sense since I'd assume time is pretty fixed compared to a spotty GPS signal for vert. Def made me think I'm putting way too much faith in devices.

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I've run two of the same model head unit at the same time and it's a crap-shoot on the segment times.

Out of curiosity, I recorded today's ride on both my Garmin Edge something or other and my iphone Strava app. The times recorded on one competitive local segment (which is on a bike path through a forest with several turns, so probably difficult for a GPS to track) were as follows;

Garmin during the ride: 41 s
Garmin on Strava: 42 s
iphone on Strava: 47 s

The Strava effort comparison tool showed iphone me 11 seconds behind Garmin me at the midpoint of the segment, but iphone me narrowed the gap to 5 seconds by the end. I have done this segment many times, and the Garmin numbers seem consistent with previous similar efforts, so I think the iphone was out this time. Presumably it could just as easily have been -5s as +5s, which would have put me near the top of the leaderboard.

So this thread has inspired a new strategy for Strava domination: get jacked up on beta alanine, simul-record with as many different devices as possible (especially watches and phones as I suspect they are less accurate), and pick the ride file with the most favourable timing errors.

Do people really put any stock in segments that are under a minute? GPS variance is a way smaller deal on 3000ft climbs. But yeah, it's a good reminder to not get too caught up in Strava rankings.

Yeah that’s pretty much the point I’m trying to make, with mock seriousness.

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Originally Posted by climberevan

But yeah, it's a good reminder to not get too caught up in Strava rankings.

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Fuck. Is there even any point to life?

Remember that on a Garmin device there is a power saving mode in which it samples every 5 sec or something like that. I have found that mode to feeless accurate for segments.

I also remember when the Strava phone app first came out and the various research (albeit within the mtbr forum) about how phones similarly had 5 sec sampling. The consensus was that the phone app wasn't reliable for segments and that any sort of reliability about Strava for timing was out.

This happened to coincide with my local MTB club trying to use Strava to time a 6 mile loop for racing (singletrack time trial).

I know only use segments to track myself vs myself.

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Iowagriz

Remember that on a Garmin device there is a power saving mode in which it samples every 5 sec or something like that.

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It still locates every second, but only records a data point when it determines your velocity has changed. Meant to save file space not battery on older units, it's completely pointless now.

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Originally Posted by TrueNorth

Out of curiosity, I recorded today's ride on both my Garmin Edge something or other and my iphone Strava app. The times recorded on one competitive local segment (which is on a bike path through a forest with several turns, so probably difficult for a GPS to track) were as follows;

Garmin during the ride: 41 s
Garmin on Strava: 42 s
iphone on Strava: 47 s

The Strava effort comparison tool showed iphone me 11 seconds behind Garmin me at the midpoint of the segment, but iphone me narrowed the gap to 5 seconds by the end. I have done this segment many times, and the Garmin numbers seem consistent with previous similar efforts, so I think the iphone was out this time. Presumably it could just as easily have been -5s as +5s, which would have put me near the top of the leaderboard.

So this thread has inspired a new strategy for Strava domination: get jacked up on beta alanine, simul-record with as many different devices as possible (especially watches and phones as I suspect they are less accurate), and pick the ride file with the most favourable timing errors.

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We’ve gone as far as confirming discrepancies in the timing by gopro

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

Fuck. Is there even any point to life?

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[emoji23]

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Originally Posted by TrueNorth

So this thread has inspired a new strategy for Strava domination: get jacked up on beta alanine, simul-record with as many different devices as possible (especially watches and phones as I suspect they are less accurate), and pick the ride file with the most favourable timing errors.

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Brilliant!

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Originally Posted by climberevan

Do people really put any stock in segments that are under a minute?

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I definitely do not. It's pointless to create them at all. Once you get beyond 5-10 minutes they're meaningful for tracking personnel efforts. Leaderboards and KOMs are pretty meaningless if the gaps are seconds, but big gaps are probably credible badassery.

GPS drift is real. The other day I had a live segment active on my Garmin, and with about 1 minute left in the climb it told me I was on pace to be only 5 seconds behind my PR on this 05:40 segment. So I put my head down and burred myself for the next 45 seconds until the top of the hill, to the road sign where I know the segment ends. After cresting the climb I looked down at my Garmin to see if I set a new PR and it told me I had 150m (almost 500 ft) more to go. WTF I was clearly up the climb and on the flats past the road sign.
I dont always have live segments on, and I dont have very many live segments active, but when this specific one is active it always ends within 1 or 2 meters of that road sign, I guess today when my computer picked up the satellites it was off by a bunch.
When I start my bike rides from home I know if my computer is off or not by the elevation, I know my house is at 8606; and the end of the drive is at 8555', so its an easy reference point to see if my Garmin is wack. If its off I just ask the Garmin to relocate the satellites.

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Originally Posted by XtrPickels

I've been toying with the idea of taking on a few coaching clients.
There'd be two options.

1. Consultation (One time meeting / cost)
Essentially a one-time meeting that could be used for anything the athlete wanted. This could be used to create a training plan (3-6 months), to educate the athlete, to answer questions and get advice etc. Essentially a way for someone to get solid guidance tailored to them. If any updates were needed or the plan runs out, another meeting to check-in and re-up. I'd work with an unlimiting number of people for these.

2. Monthly coaching (recurring meetings).
This would be traditional coaching with weekly check-ins and updates to the plan. This is a much more hands-on approach that is fully customized to the athlete. Additionally Monthly check-ins to have more in-depth conversations about anything the athlete wants to cover. I would take on 3-4 athletes for this and would be looking for a 6+ month commitment. This will be a premium service as I don't like to do anything half-assed.

Would anyone be interested in these services? I'm trying to gauge interest across contacts to see if it's worth creating a side-business around this. Probably up and running by the end of the year if so.

As always, the BS I spew on here will always be free and sometimes factual.

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Both a non-mag buddy and I would possibly be interested in option 1, assuming there was was a follow-up check-in somewhere along the way.

Just wanted to give a quick shoutout to climberevan and XTRpickels for their awesome advice. I did my 62 mile race yesterday and I finished 20 minutes under my goal time WITH a mechanical that ate up about 20 minutes. I think the V02 max intervals I added in over the past month really paid off, and it was cool to see what a little structured training can add to my fitness.

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Originally Posted by meepmoop24

Just wanted to give a quick shoutout to climberevan and XTRpickels for their awesome advice. I did my 62 mile race yesterday and I finished 20 minutes under my goal time WITH a mechanical that ate up about 20 minutes. I think the V02 max intervals I added in over the past month really paid off, and it was cool to see what a little structured training can add to my fitness.

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Great job!

Sweet! You did the work and benefited from it. It's a great feeling, but I'll warn you: it's addictive...

edited previous post for clarity:

Where do you all ride when you're doing a long, zone 2 effort? At the top end of zone 2 watts? Or more in the middle of the range? Is either better than the other?

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

edited previous post for clarity:

Where do you all ride when you're doing a long, zone 2 effort? At the top end of zone 2 watts? Or more in the middle of the range? Is either better than the other?

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I just listened to a big interview with Stephen Seiler (of polarized training fame) and it confirmed what I've been thinking since getting a smart trainer.

The erg mode makes it easy to just pin yourself at the very top end of Z2, but that's actually pretty fatiguing, IMO. A real ride that targets Z2 would be way more stochastic, even if it averages the same. I believe that this is less likely to result in the kind of fatigue that polarized training is trying to avoid.

My protocol for endurance trainer rides is to set it 10-20 watts below the top end of Z2 and do very short bursts now and then just to keep it interesting. Ride time being equal, to think this works better for me. Of course, if you're doing low volume training, you'll prob need to stay a little higher in the range, but you won't be in as much danger of doing too much.

I'm in total agreement there - I spent so many rides in Zwift doing z2 rides that were all pegged to the top of my z2 output because they'd come in via Training Peaks that way. I never really thought about them as being tiring/maybe counterproductive, but I just switched over to TrainerRoad and their z2 approach mirrors what you're doing. They keep me more in the middle of z2 with a few micro-intervals intervals up and down during the workout. Def feels slightly less fatiguing (and far more interesting) vs Zwift. Not that any of that is really a fault of Zwift.

So are you saying turn ERG off and ride a bit below the stated watts?

I'm still using ERG, but yes, I'm digging TrainerRoad's z2 workouts that fluctuate throughout my z2 range, but never really touch the top of my z2 watts. But, I don't know the science behind a lot of this stuff so I don't know if that's "better" or not.

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Originally Posted by climberevan

I just listened to a big interview with Stephen Seiler (of polarized training fame) and it confirmed what I've been thinking since getting a smart trainer.

The erg mode makes it easy to just pin yourself at the very top end of Z2, but that's actually pretty fatiguing, IMO. A real ride that targets Z2 would be way more stochastic, even if it averages the same. I believe that this is less likely to result in the kind of fatigue that polarized training is trying to avoid.

My protocol for endurance trainer rides is to set it 10-20 watts below the top end of Z2 and do very short bursts now and then just to keep it interesting. Ride time being equal, to think this works better for me. Of course, if you're doing low volume training, you'll prob need to stay a little higher in the range, but you won't be in as much danger of doing too much.

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Agreed.

my ERG Base rides fluctuate between 68-72% of threshold after a lower intensity warmup. This puts me, on average 10-12 w below threshold but with fluctuations that do not exceed base wattage

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Pickles:

I'm really curious what your thoughts are about beta alanine. I started taking 3 g/day about 2 months ago and wish I had discovered it years ago.

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Pickels, DTM, Bean, et. al - what are your dosage and frequency recommendations for BA? Also, how do you dose relative to workouts (2 hours before, after, etc.)? I just bought a bottle of 120x 750mg capsules. The bottle recommends "Take 3 capsules 2 to 3 times daily with water. For best results, allow at least 2 hours between doses." This site has some thoughts - with links to studies, it appears - but would love input from the Mags. Thanks in advance.

I do 3g/day in one dose (mixed with water) whenever I think of it. I read the effects are cumulative and not immediate so I don't time ingest to a ride. Actually, this time of year I purposely avoid taking it before rides as I find the tingling feeling even more annoying when I'm riding in the cold.

Edit to add - FWIW I started taking it when it was mentioned here (August maybe?) and since set PR's on stuff I ride a lot and got bumped from B to A in zwift. Are those things a result of b/a? Impossible for me to say. I'd guess there are bigger factors at play than just b/a, but I'll likely keep taking it as it feels like it could be helping, and I don't see any downside to ingest (other than the annoying tingling feeling).

I take 1 tsp (about 4.5 g) daily with breakfast. Studies show that it's safe to take up to 6 g/day so I pull back from that a little just out of an abundance of caution. You need to take it every day or close to it and I don't think timing relative to workouts really matters. It takes about 4 weeks to fully saturate your carnosine stores. Splitting up the doses reduces the paresthesia if you find the tingling uncomfortable, but it's totally harmless. Taking it with food also reduces the tingling since it absorbs slower.

Powders will be cheaper than capsules. I just ran out of the bag I bought from BulkSupplements and decided to try Carnosyn as Pickles recommended. It's about twice the price of the BS stuff, but that means it's $0.30/dose instead of $0.15/dose so still really cheap. I'll report back on whether there seems to be any difference.

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Originally Posted by fool

Pickels, DTM, Bean, et. al - what are your dosage and frequency recommendations for BA? Also, how do you dose relative to workouts (2 hours before, after, etc.)? I just bought a bottle of 120x 750mg capsules. The bottle recommends "Take 3 capsules 2 to 3 times daily with water. For best results, allow at least 2 hours between doses." This site has some thoughts - with links to studies, it appears - but would love input from the Mags. Thanks in advance.

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I take 1tsp (3-5g? I don't own a drug scale so not sure) daily around workouts, usually after but sometimes right before, timing isn't supposed to matter but I figure uptake will likely be better if it's right around a workout. Get powder once you're done with the pills, it's a slightly sweet flavor that's inoffensive on its own and unnoticeable in a smoothie or protein shake. I get it from bulksupplements, I'd be happy to spend more on a carnosyn branded version if they could produce head to head studies showing that it is measurably better than generic but I haven't seen that yet.

examine.com is a great website for supplement data analysis, here's their BA page:
https://examine.com/supplements/beta-alanine/

Carnosyn top, Bulksupplements on the bottom. No difference in taste or subjective effects. I'd say save your money and stick with BS. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c7c6c96408.jpg

Thanks, all. I started feeling the tingling last night and thought I was tripping on...something?...before I remembered I took the BA. :)

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Originally Posted by XtrPickels

I've been toying with the idea of taking on a few coaching clients.
There'd be two options.

1. Consultation (One time meeting / cost)
Essentially a one-time meeting that could be used for anything the athlete wanted. This could be used to create a training plan (3-6 months), to educate the athlete, to answer questions and get advice etc. Essentially a way for someone to get solid guidance tailored to them. If any updates were needed or the plan runs out, another meeting to check-in and re-up. I'd work with an unlimiting number of people for these.

2. Monthly coaching (recurring meetings).
This would be traditional coaching with weekly check-ins and updates to the plan. This is a much more hands-on approach that is fully customized to the athlete. Additionally Monthly check-ins to have more in-depth conversations about anything the athlete wants to cover. I would take on 3-4 athletes for this and would be looking for a 6+ month commitment. This will be a premium service as I don't like to do anything half-assed.

Would anyone be interested in these services? I'm trying to gauge interest across contacts to see if it's worth creating a side-business around this. Probably up and running by the end of the year if so.

As always, the BS I spew on here will always be free and sometimes factual.

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Target NICA?. When my kid hit puberty and started hitting podiums, I could have used someone like you, with a level of depth beyond his father trying to give half assed advice.

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Originally Posted by fool

Thanks, all. I started feeling the tingling last night and thought I was tripping on...something?...before I remembered I took the BA. :)

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"Oh cool my face and entire body feel like they're starting a severe allergic reaction. Should be fine; some dudes on the internet named Pickles and Dan said it'll make me faster." :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

"Oh cool my face and entire body feel like they're starting a severe allergic reaction. Should be fine; some dudes on the internet named Pickles and Dan said it'll make me faster." :biggrin:

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...exactly! :D

Any favorite trainers that work with boost 148 spaced bikes? Im thinking direct drive and will probably just default to a kicker unless someone steers me away.

I can get a year long peloton member covered by my health insurance but I’m fairly judgemental of the product and don’t love the resistance knob. I’ve looked used and I could get one locally for a little under $1000. So if that’s a better option I could get onboard with it.

I’ve realized if I want to be fast a trainer is the next logical step. It’ll let me ride in the evenings after work in the winter when it’s cold/dark/snowy.

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Originally Posted by Tailwind

Any favorite trainers that work with boost 148 spaced bikes? Im thinking direct drive and will probably just default to a kicker unless someone steers me away.

I can get a year long peloton member covered by my health insurance but I’m fairly judgemental of the product and don’t love the resistance knob. I’ve looked used and I could get one locally for a little under $1000. So if that’s a better option I could get onboard with it.

I’ve realized if I want to be fast a trainer is the next logical step. It’ll let me ride in the evenings after work in the winter when it’s cold/dark/snowy.

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I used a peloton for a few years because my wife got it, you can do some good training with it (and I did) but zwift is so much more my speed and erg mode for workouts is awesome compared to the peloton knob aside from erg taking ~5 seconds to settle on a new power target. I have no kickr experience and decided to pony up for a tacx smart bike because I spend a whole lot more time riding in the basement than I do outside.

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Originally Posted by Canada1

Target NICA?. When my kid hit puberty and started hitting podiums, I could have used someone like you, with a level of depth beyond his father trying to give half assed advice.

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This is an interesting angle.

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Originally Posted by XtrPickels

This is an interesting angle.

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Also, judging from the amount of 7-10K bikes out there at the races, there are a lot of heavily invested helicopter dentist dads around these teams.

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Originally Posted by Canada1

Also, judging from the amount of 7-10K bikes out there at the races, there are a lot of heavily invested helicopter dentist dads around these teams.

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Aka "the Downside"

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Originally Posted by XtrPickels

Aka "the Downside"

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But think of the premium you could charge with your credentials....