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Heh, I also have a 191 K108, but actually sold my 191 M102 because I thought it was too much of an overlap, and bought a 191 M6 to round out the crustier side of snow conditions. The K108 is 'the same' but definitely better in deeper snow (duh), and the M6 is definitely better on harder snow (duh), but the M102 seemed to me to be best at everything in between. The perfect all season tire if there is such a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
I don't have the K108 (I'm an MFree 108 fanboi), but am seriously looking at the M6 to fill the groomer day slot. Had been looking at M102, but the width doesn't seem like there's enough gap.Quote:
Originally Posted by YoEddy
FWIW, there are good deals on M5 Mantras at various shops.
I still very much like my M102 mostly for its versatility to handle a broad range of conditions. It’s a great resort oriented travel ski. Mine are still mounted -1cm to reduce the speed wobble when arcing groomers at speed.
I did pick up a Fischer Ranger 107ti and have been very impressed with it. Don’t hear much about the Fischer Rangers other than the 102FR, which I would love to try. The 107ti is a stronger carving ski than the M102 and I’ll be spending more time on it in softer and variable snow to see if it will unseat the M102 as my go to ski.
Still so unclear to me whether the 191 Mantra 102 is a bruiser or not.
I'm coming from the 189 BMX 105HP which is also a pretty hefty ski, and trying to understand how much more or less maneuverable the 191 M102's will be relative to the BMX's.
Does anyone have time on both of these skis by any chance?
I’ll say this about the 191. It will more than satisfy your. Need to have a ski that will crush firm groomers. In fact it will make yoou want to attack and assault them. I don’t have any desire to have anything skinnier because they are that good on suboptimal frontside conditions.
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I agree...last time I had them out on firm, I thought well I can't imagine anything doing better than these.
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The 184 on a low angle runout. But still. I never imagined my carving ski would be 102 underfoot. Makes me super curious about that Fischer 107ti mentioned above.
Can you solve this battle for us, KC? Paging KC to further expand his quiver for a review for us.
Attachment 389279
Got an inquiry recently about how the 191 M102 behaves overall and in tight quarters. I’ve only skied the 184 but am kicking around picking up a 191.
@bry and @SeatownSlackey - you guys both ski and dig the 191 length if I’m not mistaken. Either of you able to comment and share your experience with the collective?
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+1 to Banditman's Q
I'm very interested in the 191's
Seems clear that the M102 is heavy, damp, stable, and a great combo of edge-hold plus release-ability on trail, windbuff, and chalk. Also clearly good for skiing fast through choppy snow in more open terrain.
However, where I ski (mainly Alta/Bird), most of my favorite runs have tight and bumpy entrances. The weight and extremely limited rocker profile of the M102 make it hard to believe this ski can be as maneuverable, pivoty, and user-friendly as I'm hoping it can be in tighter spaces, despite the magic of multi-radius sidecut.
For the record, my history and preference is for heavier, stiffer, damper skis (2017 BMX 105HP in 189cm and 2017 Bonafide in 187cm are some of my all-time favorite skis), so I mean "maneuverable" and "pivoty" relatively speaking to other skis on this side of the spectrum.
Sounds like the party line is that "it doesn't look like it has a pivoty nature, but skiing is believing."
I have my doubts, but I very much want to be convinced, and very much appreciate everyone's input here.
PS for reference I'm 6'4 185lbs.
I bought the party line and bought the 2020 M102.Quote:
Originally Posted by VON
A great ski for groomers (you will hit speeds you’ve never hit before), and a great ski in choppy snow in open terrain.
Not as fun (for me) in really tight, steep spots. If I skied groomers like Gaijin's pic above then owning one of these is a no-brainer.
Some alpine entrances on Blackcomb made me uneasy when on the M102….I didn’t find it maneuverable, pivoty or user friendly enough. Until I got into the open. Then I flew.
I sold the M102 at $100CDN loss. Worth it to try for me.
If I only skied open terrain I would own an M102 or K108.
And so maybe I should still own one, and have it for a “quiver” ski. But I ski with a bunch of good skiers, and we’re always seeking out tight, steep spots at least a few times a day. And on the M102 I was always like “oh fuck”….until we got out of the tight and into the steep, more open areas. Steep and chalky and open the M102 was epic.
FWIW….I mounted my M102s forward at +0.5cm in front of the front mark ….so +2.5cm from back rec line. That likely caused some tail release issues for me. Doing it again I would mount at +1cm front the back line (-1.5cm from where I mounted). Funny….i also just realized I never skied my M102s at Whistler…always Blackcomb. Whistler is more open. Or maybe at ~165 lbs I just like less burly skis?
Apparently I’m still an idiot as I’m reading the K108 thread and thinking hmm? Or maybe the new Cochise 106..? Haha
I’d love to hear more about M102 vs BMX, Bonafide, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by VON
I was also shocked to read Bandit Man’s comment about the MFree 108 being comparable to his Billy Goat in the trees in the Dynastar thread.
The M102 isn’t my tree ski, but when it does enter the trees it’s a bit of attention and planning (in powder.) Nowhere near how I would expect a Billy Goat to ski.
I don’t need the carveability of the M102 as much as I’d like the pivotability of something close to a BG. Hmmm
Hiya I am 44, 6'2", 176lbs. this morning.
Shallow rocker lines and modest camber make them feel pretty flat under foot to me and the disconnected titanal also helps along the flex and feel, I think.
I find them super pivoty and loose in the tips/tails relative to the other similar chargy skis I've skied the past few seasons: 192 LP105s, 189 Wren 108tis, 193 Husumes, gen 2 193 Corvus, gen 2 192 Cochise, 194 Sender Squads, 192 Cochise 106, 192 Stormrider 95s, 188 Commander 108s both gens.
Of all, only the 191 Katana 108s feel the same, and the OG 193 Cochise a level up perhaps but some strikingly similar pivot/swing weight feelings in places between K108 and OG Cochise, which Bandit has pointed out.
These 191 M102s are the shit. But while the tips/tails are loose the swing weight isn't immaterial...the 191s are about 2350g/ski, which is the lightest of the skis listed by prob 100g/ski and one of the lightest of all my skis.
These feel easy peasy enough to me to be a daily driver to ski the whole mountain. About, 100g lighter/ski than the BMX 105HPs as well. Haven't skied them yet but will get some side by side pics going later.
Many (most?) of my fave lines have some sketchy AF bumped and/or rocky entrances, and I've hit up trees in these mini golfing on storm days when I could've been on other skis and these were fine, just a great pair of work boots they feel like so to speak, but clown shoes they are not. Sometimes I ski the Pro Riders all morning and these feel like toys in the afternoon.
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Mounted mine on the line and I have no issues in tight spaces. Quick, pivots well, no tail release problems. Great skis for me in all conditions except deep pow.
6'1" 235 on 191s mounted on the rearmost line. As Bry's post sums up well, its all relative. These aren't punishing skis like some of the referenced skis. Are they as loose as a much more rockered ski? Of course not but here's an anecdote that hopefully gives some good color.
I skied the 190 Qlabs for several seasons as the primary no new snow slot in the rotation. Still have them and love them. They liked to go fast, carved well on frontside runs and groomers, had the metal and mass to ski through chunder and shit snow when needed. Sometimes would spin a lap or two out the high T @ alpy which is rife with steep narrow chokes to get to the next more open section. The Qlab had a very stout and wide tail. There was one instance where I found myself in 6" of heavyish new on a firm base and unbeknownst to me, a few folks had already tagged the only way in to a line that is no fall territory and less than a ski wide for the first 80 feet or so. I ended up bailing and booting out because all I could envision was that tail catching too much and gravity yanking me over headfirst. Strait lining didn't work either as I didn't trust the tail to not engage too much on a mandatory power slide once clear of the rocks on either side. I would have had 100% faith and confidence in the m102 in that same tight scenario despite measuring >3cm longer than the sallys. Deeper snow and tight trees, I'm going to be on billygoats/protests and not the 102 but there is something to the multiple radius magic. Locked or loose, you decide and it has the backbone and energy to make it fun.
Y'all are getting me into some trouble. Trigger pulled on the 191's. Will report back!
Attachment 393799Quote:
Originally Posted by VON
+1 on comments by bry and seatown. The 191's are pretty easy to make go sideways, especially for a ski that is so strong on edge. I didn't think the 191 felt like a more demanding ski than the 184, it just felt like a slightly longer ski. I personally just like the feel of more ski out in front of me but could live happily ever after on a 184. Not a huge difference between the two lengths, same with the K108
So....
Got too many bindings....can't seem to sell them so only option is to buy more skis.
Considering putting the M102 back in the quiver. Great deals on some 2021s around. This time will mount on the back line at +0cm, or maybe +1cm from theback line (versus the +2.5cm mount from back line last time). See what all you "on-the-line" guys are talking about.
My wife is also likely picking up a pair of 170cm M5s for her ripper ski.
Love when you re-buy the same ski you used to own.
Paging banditman to push me over the edge. Gaijin this must hurt your brain. Haha.
KC
So, I know where you ski and from the amazing photos of last season, how you ski. You have a BSL one size smaller than mine, are 1” shorter and weigh 35-lbs less (your 165 vs my 200). You could totally handle a 184 M102. My 155-lb, 5’ 10” son has no issue with them. I know you have to be a stronger technical skier than him. He’s all speed, strength, and stupidity right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by kc_7777
So, a 177-cm M102 on the Rear Line?!? No problem for you, even at Blackcomb.
I’m over here trying to talk myself out of 191’s. Not because I’m some kind of bad ass, but because the 184’s can feel short at times.
I did add 192 LP105’s and 194 Sender Squads to the quiver over the past few months, so I’m certainly having some kind of “wish I was still a young buck charger” moment. [emoji6]
Hey banditman,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
Thanks as always. I hope we can do a few runs together one day and discuss our similar quivers. Maybe this coming season at Whistler. I'm there every weekend and some weekdays.
My real reasoning on getting the M102 again is my E104 (and now M-Free 99) are just so easy to ski. Need a ski to push it on.
So back line eh? We'll see...either back line or middle line for sure. I'm gonna drink the "on-the-line" koolaid for this one. Going to the shop tomorrow with some black STHs that need a home....likely 177 (~179)...but will stand on the 184s and see.
Thought some about getting K108s....but as I have R11s, Protos, Nomad 115s....and now some Blanks. I'm covered for deeper days. Plus I want the manueverability of the M102 (vs K108).
And I approve of you getting 191s.
KC
I still very much like my 184cm M102’s but they’re getting nervous as they’ve been surrounded by Rangers.
188cm 99ti just arrived and I’ve had the 182cm 107ti since last March.
Demo bindings? Just a thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by kc_7777
If trying new skis is your hobby, think how much more "fun" you will have playing with mount points! [emoji6]
Will definitely be interested in your feedback on the Rangers. The main reason I have not put them into strong consideration is their reputation for being so “precise” and living in the PNW. With our dense snow, I need a tail that can release easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by singlecross
Yeah, that makes sense for PNW. For East Coast ice, Precise is nice. And that ice is always lurking under whatever new snow we do get here on the l’East Coast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
That and the old racer in me likes a strong tail to launch into the next turn and not wash out (i.e. release).
I picked up some 188cm 99ti's and suspect that they may be pushing my 191 M102's towards the door (once I ski them). But maybe not. The M102 is a phenomenal ski - I love the 3d radius and echo the praise about maneuverability to charginess ratio. I don't find them to be quite the trucks that others have described, at 200lbs and skiing at a wide open mountain I may not be quite finding their speed limit, but am finding a point where they inspire slightly less confidence. That's not really a complaint though. If the rangers unseat them it will be because of energy return. My only real complaint about the M102s is that they don't snap back as hard as I'd like. Very much personal preference though, they're not dead by any meansQuote:
Originally Posted by singlecross
Yeah… I’m following along. More than glad nobody offered to take my M102s from GearSwap. The moment I posted them I was like— WTF are you doing?Quote:
Originally Posted by kc_7777
Sorry guys. I may rarely ski it here in my Japow forest land… but those two days a year I do, I NEED THEM AVAILABLE!
I also realized I was selling them to get rid of the Baron Demo mounted on them. I want a Pivot15/CAST for this ski.
Last time my binding ruined my ski was a Fritschi Freeride on an OG Gotama. This feels the same but 20 years later. This feels like another decade of rolling my eyes at the binding that exists versus the new bindings being deserving of a new ski themselves so the remount/swap will never happen.
Bindings waste good skis.
You have my attentionQuote:
Originally Posted by kc_7777
And I’ve been thinking about getting an M102 which I caught and released last year. Think I better drill these mPro99’s first and give em a shot tho
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I’ve got a pair of 191s with warden 13 demo bindings for sale at our shop. One of our demos. Less used because of the size. $550cdn. We can ship. Figured one of you might be into it.
Re the Salomon Blanks....ya I saw their rocker profile (it's awesome!) and was like "I have to ski these". So I bought them on the spot. That will be another thread!Quote:
Originally Posted by ticketchecker
Re getting the M102 again......shopping Black Friday sales now. And also researching and mulling over a Cochise 106. Thinking the M102 is not as easy to pivot/slide vs a Cochise 106. Not that I want this ski for for making quick turns in bumps, tight chutes...I have other skis for that. If I get one, this ski will be for groomers and skiing fast in open terrain....but something to think about. Blister Luke skied the Cochise 106 at +2.5cm (blapshemy!)
I think the M102 would be better on groomers, and that's where I'm leaning, M102 at +1cm (center Volkl line).
And f'ing companies and their inconsistent and non-comparable ski sizing....all of these are "177cm" below??
The 2021 177cm (really ~179cm) M102 and 177cm (really ~179cm) K108 look giant compared to the 177cm (really ~176cm) 2021 Cochise 106?
Sorry the three skis are not lined up perfectly....but it shows the M102 and K108 look like way bigger skis than the Cochise 106.
Also, the M102 and Katana are pretty damn close. Don't think you would need both the 12 and K108.
Attachment 394055
Attachment 394056
Attachment 394057
Between the M102, K108, and Cochise 106, the M102 is the best overall performer and the most versatile.
I liked the M102 at Blackcomb. I could also see the Cochise 106 being a good choice for the Blackcomb High Alpine. I’d pick the K108 for Whistler, followed by the M102. More open terrain and more groomer run outs. I really disliked the Cochise 106 on anything groomed.
Good points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
I can’t forget that I have the 176cm Line Blade specifically for groomers.....was thinking that I've already owned the 2020 M102....which then got me to start reading about the K108 again.
I already have a ton of manuveurable skis (Proto, Blanks, Nomads, R11s, E104s) for Blackcomb days...all of which are pretty versatile and easy. The quiver really needs something for those non-blower, crud days for going really fast in open terrain at Whistler.
Which then got me trying to think of a day that I would be on a K108 when I would want it to be 6mm narrower? Couldn't think of a day. But I think there may be a few days that I would be on the M102 when I would wish it was 6mm wider.
There's my answer I think.
Exactly why I sold my M102 and bought the K108.Quote:
Originally Posted by kc_7777
Attachment 394260
Just lifted this M102 rocker profile shot off of backcountry.
While certainly low-slung, they actually have longer rocker lines than I had previously thought based on pictures I'd seen on Blister.
If this pic is accurate, it's got me way more excited and confident about the ski's potential for power and pivotability.
I'll def post up some pics of the M102's rocker profile when de-cambered as soon as they're in my hands, and then of course a review once I've got them on snow.
Here’s what my 184’s look like de-cambered. I think you are going to be really excited when you see the 191’s in real life.
Attachment 394274Attachment 394275
Attachment 394276
Attachment 394277
Attachment 394278
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the pics - super stoked!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
Really interesting here. Maybe it's just my eyes, but in these pics it almost looks like the tail rocker line is longer than the tip rocker line.
I think it is an optical illusion. It looks like I cropped the tail photo and it zoomed in closer. Here is the non-cropped view:Quote:
Originally Posted by VON
Attachment 394357
191's arrived.
Thanks to everyone for your info on these skis. I want to return the favor based on the very limited amount of time I've had on them so far.
Me: 35 years old, athletic, skiing my whole life, 6'4" 185 lbs, Utah.
Favorite skis I've ever owned: 2013 Stockli Stormrider 95, 2017 Blizzard Bonafide, 2017 Kastle BMX 105HP, 2015 Blizzard Bodacious, 2018 Moment Bibby, 2019 Billy Goat
First impressions handling them:
1. Length: longer than all my other 191 skis - actual length closer to 191.5
2. Weight: fair heavy, but in line with most of my other skis at around 2350g's
3. Rocker profile: low slung, but much much longer rocker lines than I was expecting, which is great news and has me excited. While I think the rocker length is great, I'd personally prefer a bit more pronounced splay in both tip and tail.
4. Flex: stiff all around, but pretty round with tips and tails feeling similar. Also feels like the tips are actually stiffer than the forebody, which is interesting, and kinda nice.
5. Mount point: given the subject of this thread, I did think about going +1, but I ultimately mounted them on the line because I didn't want to overthink it, and all my previous skis have been just fine at recommended.
On snow impressions:
Utah has had a very rough start to the season, so my impressions are limited to the terrain off Little Cloud chair at Snowbird: Regulator Johnson for a high speed groomer, and then Shireen, Rasta Chutes, etc. off Road to Provo were also open with some real cruddy refrozen snow.
1. Tip: there's definitely a lot of ski in front of you. The swing weight is significant. More than the BMX105HP (which is my main point of comparison). When driving the ski on hard snow, you really do feel that whole long effective edge engaging, and in a lot of ways, the groomer experience is reminiscent of my Head monsters. No tip chatter (unlike the BMX), and absolute reliability on edge assuming you are pushing them. I could happily have this as the narrowest ski in my quiver.
2. Tail: strong, good rebound out of the turn. Surprisingly easy to release the tail, which is fantastic, and probably my favorite characteristic of this ski given the amount of power and edge-hold available when you want it.
3. Multi-radius stuff: it's definitely real . When skiing fast and straight through crud, it feels like I'm on a verrry straight ski. However, if I want to make a tight radius carve, I can push it into a tighter radius than I expected.
4. Energy: there is definitely some rebound in the tail of this ski (which is not something I can say for the BMX105HP). You gotta be skiing fast and pushing it, but the energy is in there.
6. Crud and bumps: Definitely does a good job absorbing crappy snow. Not quite as plush a feel as my Kastles, but definitely more energy. While the tail can release, it is a big long ski, and it definitely wants you to be skiing fast and fall line, not putting the ski sideways. If you approach steep and bumped out terrain by frequently putting the skis sideways, I don't think the M102 is for you.
Overall, I'd say that this is a ski that pushes me to ski physically, fast, and commit to the fall line. As long as I'm taking an aggressive approach to the mountain, it is incredibly rewarding.
For those who are thinking about mount point on the 191's, my experience to date has me thinking that +1 might be the best choice. You'll still have plenty of ski in front of you, and the tail does release easily enough that I'd accept having more tail behind me in exchange for a bit more maneuverability and a bit less swing weight up front.
Keep in mind, I've only had two days on the M102's, and both days were in very subpar refrozen conditions, so more impressions to come when I get more quality time on them.
Attachment 395855
Looking forward to hearing your experience in better conditions. Glad to hear you didn’t die yet. [emoji6]
Thanks for sending this. Namaste and pray for snow!
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