The Nutrition Science thread

Just a quick recap into my Keto journey for those looking for anecdotal experiences. I started keto as part of a spring health rejuvenation kick. I really liked the idea of endless energy and not having to eat during long endurance efforts. The first few days were easy, then it got nasty. Headaches, low energy, borderline depression, lack of motivation to do anything other than lay on the couch, etc.. Also had some muscle cramps that no amount of electrolytes seemed to fix. That lasted about two weeks. Those side effects lessened but the low energy, poor mood, poor workout recovery, and lack of motivation stayed with me until I finally gave it up at week seven. During that time, I kept my carbs to under 30, tried to hit about .8 to 1.0 grams per lb lbm of protein per day, and ate fat until satiated. I was also fasting an average of about 15 hours between dinner and breakfast. I did have a few cheat days in there when I just needed a break. My buddy's gym just so happened to have a body comp company come when I was about four days in and then again at six weeks. First test put me at 15.6% body fat and 84.4% lean mass. The second was 14.7% body fat and 85.3% lean mass. I actually gained weight as I put on a few pounds of lean mass. I was pretty underwhelmed with the results especially with the amount of work and discomfort I went through. I can easily drop a few pounds in a week just by using portion control, so I was kind of surprised by my lack of fat loss. I ketoed on for one more week as I really wanted to be sure I gave my body time to adjust, but at week seven I decided to stop.
I have always felt good eating a mostly zone paleo diet with some intermittent fasting, so I have been back to this for the last week. I say mostly because I allow myself some tortillas, beer, gluten etc.. I would say 70% paleo, 30% beer and tacos. Bottom line, I feel way better. No more fogginess, low energy, or mood issues. My workouts are better and I just generally feel awesome. And, beer has never tasted this good.
My take away is that this keto thing is not for everyone. Honestly, I thought it would work for me and I gave it a good go, but in the end I find eating a more balanced diet and just controlling total calories to fit my desired body comp goals works better for me. I'm super active, lifting heavy twice per week and doing a mix of aerobic and glycolytic activity (skiing, mtb, paddling) four days per week with one day off on average. My suspicion is that less active people will have a higher rate of success with keto as their glycogen requirements aren't as high. For me, I felt like my body was stressed and just plain unhappy while in ketosis.
Anyway, just my N=1 experiment to add to this thread's data points.

Edit: Forgot to add I'm 47, 5'8" 162 lbs.

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Originally Posted by bagtagley

Honest Tea makes a slightly sweet that’s just that, although it’s sweeter than it used to be. I’ve only seen small bottles, though. Like jono said, it’s painfully easy to make your own.

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Yep, Honest Tea is the only company that I've seen where low sugar means "less sweet".

Yes, you can make tea at home, but my rant isn't about tea, it's about drinks and products in general.

What do we thnk about this? https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...b-3-slow-aging

It's all over the internets quite recently.

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Originally Posted by iceman

What do we thnk about this? https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...b-3-slow-aging

It's all over the internets quite recently.

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I've been using Tru Niagen for the past 4 months. I dig it. Definitely more energy, better balance, improved eyesight, etc.. I loaded up with 500 mg for about a month (double recommended) based on some research on dosage and now take 375 daily. My guess is that if your NAD is declining you will feel improvement (I'm 47). I have a friend that is taking it who is 36 and says he's not really feeling a difference.

Glycine is a legit 100% healthy sweetener.

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Originally Posted by TAHOEDOWN

I've been using Tru Niagen for the past 4 months. I dig it. Definitely more energy, better balance, improved eyesight, etc.. I loaded up with 500 mg for about a month (double recommended) based on some research on dosage and now take 375 daily. My guess is that if your NAD is declining you will feel improvement (I'm 47). I have a friend that is taking it who is 36 and says he's not really feeling a difference.

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Interesting. Seems similar to hormone replacement therapy in that it has huge potential when used to top off levels that would otherwise naturally be in decline.

about three months in myself, which included a 2 week vacation. Down about 15 pounds, which is about all I could reasonably expect total. But I'll still try/hope for 5-10 more. Diet and intermittent fasting (16/8) are the only changes.

I'm down 18 lbs but struggling to break 200#. Basically keto but cheating with beer, but trying to mostly cut back on weekday drinking. Might have to take a week off to break the 200# mark. Weekends are the toughest but I've been pretty good about not eating carbs most of the time. Beer is my one downfall. Shooting for 185 then build back to 195 with muscle in the fall mud season when it's harder to get outside, I'll join the gym.

Feeling pretty good though, sometimes too good, as in too much energy and no way to expend it all. Did a pretty big ride Sunday and crushed it and felt like I could do another.

The 200 mark is brutal for me. I’ve been fairly consistent with 50/35/15 but as soon as I lose track (vacation? Wedding? Oh and my back goes out which suxx) and I’m back a couple over 200.

Mountain biking has been a super fun addition to my physical activity but my back goes out if I do it too much. Everything in moderation, I suppose, except crappy carbs. And always try and drink less. I wish beer wasn’t so good these days.

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Originally Posted by Self Jupiter

I’ve been fairly consistent with 50/35/15

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I am curious about this, I see people with these low carb diets, that are not the "very low carb" that is the keto diet. From what I have read, I assume that 15% carbs is too many carbs to keep one in ketosis (my quick calc says that is something like 75g of carbs). What is the benefit of a low carb but not low enough to be in ketosis diet?

I don’t believe 50/35/15 lights your metabolism on fire and douses it with gasoline like FullKeto does, but from my understanding, some of the principles and benefits overlap. Important to note that I’m still using IF and trying to cut out all sugar and refined carbs, so ideally the carbs are slow-carbs or whole food derived. Everything should be whole food derived if at all possible.

I went with it because I doubted my internal discipline to stay keto. So far I’ve mostly been replacing fat with muscle more easily than when previously following a ‘diet’ closer to the food pyramid, despite a noticeable drop in my natural metabolic rate over the past few years which was never all that impressive to begin with. I’m 32.

I believe I’ve been told it is similar to Atkins?

Guess i'm doing the Bromontane diet now.

Knocked myself out of keto by over doing pecans and macadamia nuts, and have never gotten back, and kind of gave up.

Crappy tortillas was the straw that broke the camels back for me. Tried 3 or 4 deferent brands, and they all suck, plus i was craving beans.

Doing pretty good at staying low carb, but not low enough to keto. Guessing i'm running 50 to 75 grams, where i should be 25 to 30 for keto.

My naughty items are pinto beans and corn tortillas. And super naughty is ice cream maybe once a month.

Haven't weighed in awhile, pretty sure i haven't gained back what i lost in keto, but also not losing anymore.

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Originally Posted by capulin overdrive

<snip>

My naughty items are pinto beans and corn tortillas.

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Fuck any diet in which tortillas are a "no-no"... I mean, my GOD, people - think of the tacos!

I've been eating the low carb tortillas and don't mind them, but I'm no connoisseur. I've always just seen tortillas and a vehicle for my cheese and meat to ride on. I also don't really like corn torts much either. Really, cutting out carbs has been pretty easy for me. Not a big bread or fruit guy in the first place. I even started brewing some low carb beer that is pretty damn good.

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

I've been eating the low carb tortillas and don't mind them, but I'm no connoisseur. I've always just seen tortillas and a vehicle for my cheese and meat to ride on. I also don't really like corn torts much either.

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Seek help.

yeah, the low carb tortillas aren't great, but they certainly work as tortillas. Kinda like whole wheat tortillas.

Fruit and beer are the two hardest things for me. I didn't drink much beer before the diet, but damn if I don't miss a nice cold one after a ride.

Next time I catch someone eating a "taco" on a whole wheat tortilla, I'm gonna get all Pulp Fiction on their ass. :mad:

You have to drink a cold one after a ride. It’s good for ya. I think. Feels good. Can’t stop, won’t stop, will never stop, never stop never stopping.

Never been a bread guy, and don't really like fries.

But growing up with access to really good tortillas, just cant deal with the bad ones.

#bromopower #fuelforverbalpugilism

As long as they come from whole food sources I embrace all teh macros. I can easily go through a 15-lb Costco bag of Yukon Golds in 2-3 weeks.

I would consider quality corn tortillas to be an optimal source of carbs, not a cheat. It doesn't hurt that they're quick/easy, versatile, and fucking delicious.

Don’t think I ran across this thread before.
I finally said “fuck the bullshit” about 4-5wks back and went into a Keto-low carb lifestyle. I don’t mess around too much with exact numbers but I think I’m pretty close to being in ketosis most of the time.
I’ve experienced some not so fun digestive issues. My guess is too much fat and protein. Cooled down on the fat and meat slightly. Seems to have improved slightly.
Other than that I’ve been happy with the change. Down about 15lbs which is likely half water weight but at least some shorts are fitting better.
Next step is to stop being glued to my office and home duties. Time to get some real exercise so I can keep up with my kids come ski season!

Just read this article about a study this morning. Says that low-carb is linked to elevated mortality. Sounds like a lot of it is related to heavy consumption of meat, and not really vegetable fats.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/low-carb-...233354036.html

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Originally Posted by schwerty

Don’t think I ran across this thread before.
I finally said “fuck the bullshit” about 4-5wks back and went into a Keto-low carb lifestyle. I don’t mess around too much with exact numbers but I think I’m pretty close to being in ketosis most of the time.
I’ve experienced some not so fun digestive issues. My guess is too much fat and protein. Cooled down on the fat and meat slightly. Seems to have improved slightly.
Other than that I’ve been happy with the change. Down about 15lbs which is likely half water weight but at least some shorts are fitting better.
Next step is to stop being glued to my office and home duties. Time to get some real exercise so I can keep up with my kids come ski season!

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There definitely was a gut adjustment for me. Since the initial period, I have had occasional digestive issues, but they seem (can't know for sure) to be related to dehydration and lack of electrolytes. Mostly went away when I started drinking way more water and making sure I got lots of electrolytes.

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Originally Posted by bagtagley

I would consider quality corn tortillas to be an optimal source of carbs, not a cheat. It doesn't hurt that they're quick/easy, versatile, and fucking delicious.

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I don't know that I would go so far as call them optimal, but on a 0-10 scale where 10 is kale and 0 is canned cake frosting they're a solid 7. On that same scale I'd put tubers at 8.5 and beans at 7.5.

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Originally Posted by schwerty

Down about 15lbs which is likely half water weight but at least some shorts are fitting better.

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You've likely lost some water due to reduced glycogen storage, but that's 2-3 lbs at most. If you've lost any other "water" weight it's due to a reduction in systemic inflammation which is a damn good thing. It's sort of like if you were to roll your ankle badly, have it swell way up then get better, but dismiss the healing by saying, "That doesn't mean anything, it was just some excess water."

Good on ya. Losing is easy, maintaining is what's hard.

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

Just read this article about a study this morning. Says that low-carb is linked to elevated mortality. Sounds like a lot of it is related to heavy consumption of meat, and not really vegetable fats.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/low-carb-...233354036.html

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Full text available here: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...135-X/fulltext

I always always always recommend reading the actual study or at least the abstract instead of relying on articles from non-hard science sources. It seems to be a bit of a bullshit study:

-Cutoff for the "Low" carb group was 40% of calories. Which is not really what most people would consider a low carb diet.

-They found a U-shaped relationship with a rather narrow range of optimum consumption at 50-55% calories. Mortality levels increased at nearly identical rates at higher carb intakes as they did at lower intakes (pooled hazard ratio 1.20, 95% CI 1.09–1.32 for low carbohydrate consumption; 1.23, 1.11–1.36 for high carbohydrate consumption, per the study). Of course, only the low carb part of that makes it into the headline.

-In an associational study like this, hazard ratios that low are practically meaningless. "Significant" in the strict statistical sense, but not in the way the word is commonly used.

-"Participants who consumed a relatively low percentage of total energy from carbohydrates (ie, participants in the lowest quantiles) were more likely to be young, male, a self-reported race other than black, college graduates, have high body-mass index, exercise less during leisure time, have high household income, smoke cigarettes, and have diabetes."

Yes, the relationship was still statistically significant after controlling for these factors, but those other lifestyle factors are so intractably linked to mortality outcomes it makes the differences in HRs noted above especially meaningless. I'd love to know what the unadjusted HRs were (probably much higher).

-This is my favorite part: This was (yet another) study based on data from FFQs. One of the data points estimated from the FFQs was total caloric intake. So, let's see what that was:

1558, 1655, 1660, 1646, 1607

Self-reported energy intake was 1558-1660 kcal/day across all cohorts! These are people with the following BMIs:

28.0, 27.9, 27.6, 27.6, 27.4

So, people with BMIs of 27-28 are claiming to be consuming ~1,600 kcal/day. Yeah, sure. I think we can safely dismiss their other reported food consumption habits as well. GIGO.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

I don't know that I would go so far as call them optimal, but on a 0-10 scale where 10 is kale and 0 is canned cake frosting they're a solid 7. On that same scale I'd put tubers at 8.5 and beans at 7.5.

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Maybe optimal isn't the best word, but I don't think it's far off in the context of discussing a good source of carbohydrates, metabolic effects notwithstanding. Given their convenience, I was mostly pointing out that they're perfectly fine to eat in moderation, and as part of a balanced, whole-food-heavy diet. I'm also currently digestively limited to a few carb sources, so I put anything made from hominy on a pretty big pedestal. I'm sick to death of white rice, and potatoes aren't far behind.

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Originally Posted by bagtagley

Given their convenience, I was mostly pointing out that they're perfectly fine to eat in moderation, and as part of a balanced, whole-food-heavy diet.

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Agreed there. They're comparatively deficient in micronutrients compared to stuff like tubers, beans and squash, but still much better than white rice or anything wheat flour-based. They should have a decent amount of resistant starch since they've been cooked, cooled and re-heated.

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Originally Posted by bagtagley

I'm sick to death of...potatoes....

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Unpossible.

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

Just read this article about a study this morning. Says that low-carb is linked to elevated mortality. Sounds like a lot of it is related to heavy consumption of meat, and not really vegetable fats.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/low-carb-...233354036.html

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Carb lobbyists are fighting back, it was inevitable.

And maybe we need a new thread for the elephant in the room...replacing ones now ill-fitting wardrobe. Or is the baggy look still a thing?

FKNA good job you guys. I never weigh myself I’m down at least a step in the visible body scale thing DTM posted pages back. Feeling pretty good also.

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Originally Posted by SkiBall

Or is the baggy look still a thing?

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Baggy pants and puffy shoes are coming back... along with noseslides and bearing condoms.

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Originally Posted by Bromontane

I went down a wormhole on that one.

https://www.stitchfix.com/

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Just bought a smaller pair of board shorts cuz my regular ones I had to exit carefully. But it almost might be worth hiring a seamstress to take in a number of my pants over replacing. Not all you know, just in case of "winter weight" or knocked into inactivity by a turn of events.

Not exactly nutrition but how much water should one drink when working outside in warm/hot dry weather? I got pretty dehydrated yesterday so today I’ve set a timer and I’m drinking a pint every hour.

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Originally Posted by steepconcrete

Not exactly nutrition but how much water should one drink when working outside in warm/hot dry weather? I got pretty dehydrated yesterday so today I’ve set a timer and I’m drinking a pint every hour.

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That’s probably not enough still. Depends how much you sweat and how hard you are working. Line workers in PR were recommended 2-3 gallons per day with electrolytes supplements every other hour. Those were 12 hr shifts.

Thanks. Maybe I’ll up it to every half hour. I’m splitting some heavy 36” oak rounds with a hydro splitter. They are about as much as I can dead lift. Some bigger ones I have to use the front end loader to get up to the splitter.

Any recommendations for electrolights that don’t contain a lot of sugar?

Occasionally I use electrolyte/ salt powder, can be purchased at STP and REI and probably somewhere else far cheaper. Makes water taste really bad.

Hammer Endurolyte tabs or powder. Good shit.

https://www.amazon.com/Nuun-Active-H...m_cr_pr_sims_t

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...de=lancet-site

Dietary carbohydrate intake and mortality: a prospective cohort study and meta-analysis

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Background

Low carbohydrate diets, which restrict carbohydrate in favour of increased protein or fat intake, or both, are a popular weight-loss strategy. However, the long-term effect of carbohydrate restriction on mortality is controversial and could depend on whether dietary carbohydrate is replaced by plant-based or animal-based fat and protein. We aimed to investigate the association between carbohydrate intake and mortality.

Methods

We studied 15 428 adults aged 45–64 years, in four US communities, who completed a dietary questionnaire at enrolment in the Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities (ARIC) study (between 1987 and 1989), and who did not report extreme caloric intake (<600 kcal or >4200 kcal per day for men and <500 kcal or >3600 kcal per day for women). The primary outcome was all-cause mortality. We investigated the association between the percentage of energy from carbohydrate intake and all-cause mortality, accounting for possible non-linear relationships in this cohort. We further examined this association, combining ARIC data with data for carbohydrate intake reported from seven multinational prospective studies in a meta-analysis. Finally, we assessed whether the substitution of animal or plant sources of fat and protein for carbohydrate affected mortality.

Findings

During a median follow-up of 25 years there were 6283 deaths in the ARIC cohort, and there were 40 181 deaths across all cohort studies. In the ARIC cohort, after multivariable adjustment, there was a U-shaped association between the percentage of energy consumed from carbohydrate (mean 48·9%, SD 9·4) and mortality: a percentage of 50–55% energy from carbohydrate was associated with the lowest risk of mortality. In the meta-analysis of all cohorts (432 179 participants), both low carbohydrate consumption (70%) conferred greater mortality risk than did moderate intake, which was consistent with a U-shaped association (pooled hazard ratio 1·20, 95% CI 1·09–1·32 for low carbohydrate consumption; 1·23, 1·11–1·36 for high carbohydrate consumption). However, results varied by the source of macronutrients: mortality increased when carbohydrates were exchanged for animal-derived fat or protein (1·18, 1·08–1·29) and mortality decreased when the substitutions were plant-based (0·82, 0·78–0·87).

Interpretation

Both high and low percentages of carbohydrate diets were associated with increased mortality, with minimal risk observed at 50–55% carbohydrate intake. Low carbohydrate dietary patterns favouring animal-derived protein and fat sources, from sources such as lamb, beef, pork, and chicken, were associated with higher mortality, whereas those that favoured plant-derived protein and fat intake, from sources such as vegetables, nuts, peanut butter, and whole-grain breads, were associated with lower mortality, suggesting that the source of food notably modifies the association between carbohydrate intake and mortality.

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

Just read this article about a study this morning. Says that low-carb is linked to elevated mortality. Sounds like a lot of it is related to heavy consumption of meat, and not really vegetable fats.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/low-carb-...233354036.html

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I saw that too. Kind of pissed me off. Unanswered in the story is the question of whether being 185 pounds eating too much meat is healthier than weighing 220 and eating a bunch whole grains. I know the first guy is happier and having looked at the exponential curve relating BMI with mortality, I suspect he’s healthier too.