The Raven - Hoji's New Masterpiece

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Originally Posted by Benneke10

Great writeup! I'm interested in your point about how the ski is hard on bindings. I'm not sure if that is really a thing, but one other data point is a buddy of mine got a new pair of Ravens last year and mounted them with Moment Voyagers and has been dealing with pre-releases. He is a very aggressive skier but only 160lbs and cranked the release up to a 12 on the bindings and still comes out. To be fair he also pre releases every other tech binding and mostly skis locked out so I don't really blame the skis or bindings.

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Crow has his mounted up with Tectons and hasnt had an issue, I've got mine mounted up with G3 Zeds, and have had issues. However, I did have a pair of Zeds that I had purchased used that were suspect... wobble in the toes, and turrets had a crack on them which seems to be a 1st gen issue.

I had skied on a pair of brand new Zeds mounted on my Hoji IIIs, and didnt have any issues prior in just about every snow condition. So the point we were trying to make was that the way the ski is designed to be used can cause some pretty catastrophic/spectacular crashes if/when they happen.

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Originally Posted by rfconroy

Crow and I just finished putting this review of the V1/MK1 Raven together.

https://www.experiencedgear.net/home/4frnt-raven-mk1

Let us know what folks think - constructive/non-constructive feedback welcome

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Nice. I have an unmounted version of this First gen raven in the basement that i’ve been curious about.

Just ordered a pair of 184 tourlock Ravens. Planning to mount these with ATK Crests and use them as the middle ski in my touring quiver (along with Mtn Explore 88s and Bent Chetler 120s). I haven’t skied a Hoji shape since the 2016-era red and black Hojis, but I remember the frictionless feel well… very stoked.

Question for the Raven team - what have you guys been running as bindings for Ravens set up as dedicated touring skis?

My 2018’s have some Kingpins which I don’t love (but got at an insane deal a few years ago).

I’m looking for something that skis well without being quite as much of a pig. Other skis have ATK’s which I love, but was debating going with some MTNs or some flavour of Dynafit.

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Originally Posted by Bamski

Question for the Raven team - what have you guys been running as bindings for Ravens set up as dedicated touring skis?

My 2018’s have some Kingpins which I don’t love (but got at an insane deal a few years ago).

I’m looking for something that skis well without being quite as much of a pig. Other skis have ATK’s which I love, but was debating going with some MTNs or some flavour of Dynafit.

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I’m running Vipecs, I’m old and I like my knees.


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I have MTNs with my tourlock Ravens. Big fan. But not sure there's much secret sauce in that combo, as the MTN is pretty proven (minus a few quirks). If you want high-DIN, I also own and like ATK FR14s, but don't think they're worth the extra $ over an MTN with expert springs.

Anyone know if we can buy the tourlock skins yet for our existing ravens?

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Originally Posted by Judo Chop!

Anyone know if we can buy the tourlock skins yet for our existing ravens?

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OOOO I know the answer to this question!

From my email:

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Originally Posted by 4FRNT Team

" That's an awesome rig you've created on your first-gen Ravens. We're proud to have you riding on 4frnt!

And thank you for your interest in our 4-Lock skin system! At this time and for the for this ski season, we are only able to facilitate purchases of the Pomoca 4-Lock skins for customers who have purchased a 4-Lock ski model from us. This is due to limited stock numbers of the Pomoca 4-Lock skins.

Thanks for your support and understanding. Please let us know if you have any other questions! "

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In short, if you have a 4Lock ski you've purchased, you can buy one, if you're fixing to do a mod like I did, or want to on another ski, youre SOL.

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Originally Posted by Bamski

Question for the Raven team - what have you guys been running as bindings for Ravens set up as dedicated touring skis?

My 2018’s have some Kingpins which I don’t love (but got at an insane deal a few years ago).

I’m looking for something that skis well without being quite as much of a pig. Other skis have ATK’s which I love, but was debating going with some MTNs or some flavour of Dynafit.

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G3 Zeds cause I'm old and stopped reading spec spreadsheets and threads about the 'best binding' and just wanted something no fuss that was easy to use.

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Originally Posted by ey_allen

G3 Zeds cause I'm old and stopped reading spec spreadsheets and threads about the 'best binding' and just wanted something no fuss that was easy to use.

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Zed, I think its the easiest tech clamp to use out of shit that I've been on. I'd say its on-par with a tecton for ease of use/transition, but without the tendency to ice up.
Here's how to transition in the Ion/Zed:
https://youtu.be/mQkRfQsNIJ0?t=38


Run it brakeless with the shim, as the brakes wear into the turret.

Only other clamp I would consider would be a Raider, much higher quality, slightly harder to use/transition.

The Zed is even easier than that - the heel piece does not move up and down like the Ion so you just rotate it.

I run it in that exact configuration - stomp pad and no brakes. So far no fuss and no issues.

New Hoji blister gear podcast up. As good as ever listening to his thoughts

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Originally Posted by ey_allen

The Zed is even easier than that - the heel piece does not move up and down like the Ion so you just rotate it.

I run it in that exact configuration - stomp pad and no brakes. So far no fuss and no issues.

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I tried to just have the part of the video play with the ski pole trick, as that's generally how I transition in the zeds. That + the Hoji lock on the Dynafit boots means I am consistently waiting for folks transition...

Been sitting on a pair of 184 ravens and now time to mount. First foray into the dark arts of reverse camber, and coming from a racing background, so I’m thinking I want to mount these as far back as acceptable. Let’s say I go -2.5 from hoji’s magic line with 297 bsl… am I gonna die?


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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah

Been sitting on a pair of 184 ravens and now time to mount. First foray into the dark arts of reverse camber, and coming from a racing background, so I’m thinking I want to mount these as far back as acceptable. Let’s say I go -2.5 from hoji’s magic line with 297 bsl… am I gonna die?


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That far back, you will be outside of the flatter section of camber making it ski wonky. I wouldnt stray much outside of +-1cm from rec. It's been at -6cm since the first gen, but it is easy to do kick turns, and is rather intuitive if you ski more on the balls of your feet.

I've got mine at +0.5cm right now, and actaully like it quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah

Been sitting on a pair of 184 ravens and now time to mount. First foray into the dark arts of reverse camber, and coming from a racing background, so I’m thinking I want to mount these as far back as acceptable. Let’s say I go -2.5 from hoji’s magic line with 297 bsl… am I gonna die?


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I went -10 from true center for a 327 bsl. That’s 1.5 cm farther back than the -8.5 max from Hoji’s mounting calculation. They ski fine, better for me with larger boot and long tibia.
This was with 190s. I like and ski more forward mounted skis and like a more upright stance but the recommended mount point using Hoji’s calculation had me feeling like I was always going over the bars. I’m also tall and heavy

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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah

Been sitting on a pair of 184 ravens and now time to mount. First foray into the dark arts of reverse camber, and coming from a racing background, so I’m thinking I want to mount these as far back as acceptable. Let’s say I go -2.5 from hoji’s magic line with 297 bsl… am I gonna die?


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Agree with rf Conroy. Mount them in the line and ski them how hoji designed them to be skiied. It is a dark art and that's half the fun.

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His recommended mount point is based on a short bsl and a short small framed man. His calculation starts to address bigger boots but I think it’s more complicated than that.


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Recommended mount is based on Hoji’s tiny feet in tiny touring boots. Look up the “Hoji mount” which IIRC leaves the toe piece in the same location regardless of boot BSL

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Originally Posted by YaBoyBlue

Recommended mount is based on Hoji’s tiny feet in tiny touring boots. Look up the “Hoji mount” which IIRC leaves the toe piece in the same location regardless of boot BSL

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His calculation moves boot center back based on bsl.


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Originally Posted by YaBoyBlue

Recommended mount is based on Hoji’s tiny feet in tiny touring boots. Look up the “Hoji mount” which IIRC leaves the toe piece in the same location regardless of boot BSL

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Correct but:

"My models of skis are meant to have an optimum mounting position area between -5 cm to -8 cm behind the true centre of the ski. *I would not recommend mounting outside of this optimum mounting area."

http://mtnguiding.com/media/2017/1/4...adesravens-too

Cool. So -8cm is 2 behind hojis’s line, and ~1.5 behind the hoji math for my boot (297bsl, 5’9, 160lb) but still “in range” and should offer a bit more front end float for my more traditional driving methods. Mounting with some shiny 170g french jewelry, and excited to dabble in the dark arts


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Still rotating these in my quiver. I find they ski variable snow extremely well. If it’s not super deep they’re an awesome tree ski or mellower terrain ski.

I’m still not sure how you’re “supposed” to handle the Raven when things get truly steep and firm (probably just the wrong ski for the job?)

I’ll be enjoying myself skiing softer snow right up until I get in to a firm choke point in a couloir and suddenly I feel like I’m on lunch trays. It’s obviously an effect of the reverse camber - but is there a prescribed way to drive these skis in this type of situation? It’s a shame since I have fun in most other spots.

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Originally Posted by Bamski

Still rotating these in my quiver. I find they ski variable snow extremely well. If it’s not super deep they’re an awesome tree ski or mellower terrain ski.

I’m still not sure how you’re “supposed” to handle the Raven when things get truly steep and firm (probably just the wrong ski for the job?)

I’ll be enjoying myself skiing softer snow right up until I get in to a firm choke point in a couloir and suddenly I feel like I’m on lunch trays. It’s obviously an effect of the reverse camber - but is there a prescribed way to drive these skis in this type of situation? It’s a shame since I have fun in most other spots.

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You have to tilt them all the way up on edge, it’s the only way. Roll your ankle all the way over.

I could never get used to it and it’s partly why I sold them.

I think I'm also about to go with a roughly -2 mount on a set of Ravens.

My BSL is 321mm and Hoji's formula woudl say 321-284 = 37 / 2 = 18.5 behind the line which translates to 84.15 from the tail on a pair of 184s.

With hole conflicts, my only two options are basically on the line and -2 (without buying new bindings), and given my skiing style, and hoji's recommendation, I think going back -2 is the best option.

Question then is how much I should shim my toe. I'm mounting Xenics which have more heel-toe delta than I think I'd like, and I would have assumed Hoji's design is meant to work with a more upright and centered stance...but I paused some videos with close ups of his Ravens and he appears to be skiing Dynafits with quite a lot of delta and no visible toe shims. And given the length of his boots, that'd be a fair amount more ramp angle than Xenics plus longer boots.

Attachment 435786Raven + Hagan Core Pro 12 color match is almost too good

I ski devastators at -2.5, love them.

One more data point: I'm at -1 on devs, and I love the way they ski there.

I used Hoji's formula on my renegades, and they definitely ski differently than anything else I own, including the devs. The turn feels like it comes from directly under your foot, instead of in front of your foot like most people are used to. It makes them very quick to turn, and you need to be centered, on it and attentive or they can leave you behind, and you'll do what motorcycle people call a "high side". If I mounted a new pair of rens I think I might go 1-2 cm back from hoji.

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Originally Posted by waveshello

One more data point: I'm at -1 on devs, and I love the way they ski there.

I used Hoji's formula on my renegades, and they definitely ski differently than anything else I own, including the devs. The turn feels like it comes from directly under your foot, instead of in front of your foot like most people are used to. It makes them very quick to turn, and you need to be centered, on it and attentive or they can leave you behind, and you'll do what motorcycle people call a "high side". If I mounted a new pair of rens I think I might go 1-2 cm back from hoji.

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The Hojis definitely ski "short" - typically how I ski both the hoji and raven is to put in big arching turns, then slash/hockey stop to shut it down...similar to how Hoji does it in his videos

The snow faucet has been stubbornly shut over here on the E side of the northern Rockies of MT for a bit, but still finding nice stashes of wind-blown hits that are surprisingly good. Throughout this early season I've been skiing my new pilsner-graphic Hoji's w/Kingpins (we had excellent November and December conditions) and having a total blast. I haven't had a ton of love for full rocker/zero camber skis in the past, but these skis frikking rip! Pretty much everything I've pointed 'em down has been made better by this ski...steeps, chop, mank, chalk, whatever. Love them! So I figured I'd grab a pair of Ravens for longer tours, maybe lower tide conditions, etc. Mounted 'em up with M-Werks Kingpins (on the line, with Scarpa Freedom SL's, 26.5/307mm). Only have a couple of days on them, but kinda having a hard time finding my groove on these skis. Hard to explain, but I just don't have a ton of confidence when skiing hard. Heading over to Whitefish for a few days starting tomorrow, so my plan is to get a bunch of laps in on this setup and really try to dial in how to make this thing feel good to me. I know it's a very different ski than the Hoji, but I've yet to find even a glimmer of family resemblance. Anyway, not tossing 'em into the Adirondack Chair pile just yet...

PS. The 4Lock skin attachment system is pretty sweet!

Re recommended mount points and Hoji’s skis. I switched boots this year and ended up in a 14mm shorter bsl. So my mounts jumped forward by 14mm x 1/2, or +0.7cm.

I was at +0.5cm from rec on my 2022 184cm Ravens and 2022 184cm Renegades last year…but with the shorter boot this year, they definitely felt “off”, skiing them over Xmas at +1.2cm.

Still skiable and great skis, but not as totally dialled as last year.

Have re-mounted the toe on the 184cm Ravens (Duke PTs) back 1.2cm and I am now at rec (eg on the bump). Haven’t skied them yet.

I think I’ll like rec as I am more forward/centered on the ski in the shorter boots (Head Kore 130).

Anyone know why the rec mount on the 184cm Hoji is -7cm? (Eg 85cm from tail). Eg why it’s different than the 184cm Raven and 184cm Renegade rec mounts in the same length (where the rec is 86cm from tail).

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Are the recommended mount numbers calculated on listed length or measured length? My 187 hojis are 185,5 cm measured tip to tail over top of ski. If I recall correctly recommended mount is 88 cm from tail on them which means 4,75 cm from measured center. Seems pretty forward.

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Originally Posted by herrgard

Are the recommended mount numbers calculated on listed length or measured length? My 187 hojis are 185,5 cm measured tip to tail over top of ski. If I recall correctly recommended mount is 88 cm from tail on them which means 4,75 cm from measured center. Seems pretty forward.

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Probably better to just go from true center, the math isn’t lining up for any of the lengths.

Hoji Mounting

-General Mounting Boot Sole Mid Point Position -5.5 cm behind the true centre of the ski

http://mtnguiding.com/media/2017/1/4...adesravens-too

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Originally Posted by mr_pretzel

Probably better to just go from true center, the math isn’t lining up for any of the lengths.

Hoji Mounting

-General Mounting Boot Sole Mid Point Position -5.5 cm behind the true centre of the ski

http://mtnguiding.com/media/2017/1/4...adesravens-too

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I’ve read that article many times. It’s why I was at +0.5cm on my Renegades and Ravens.

It’s a bit old as Renegades and Hojis are now both 184cm, not 186cm and 187cm.

Here’s my question.

The newer 4FRNTs have a dimple punched into the ski for the mount points (no longer just a mark on the sidewall).

On the 2022 184cm Renegades and 2022 184cm Ravens this is 86cm from tail, and on the 2023 Hojis it’s 85cm from the tail. All three of those skis are 184cm. The website info agrees ….with the 86cm from tail for 184cm Renegades/Ravens and 85cm for the 184cm Hoji. Why is the Hoji different?

I think Hoji needs to update that article.

And I’ll ski my 2022 Ravens at the dimple (86cm from tail) and report back. They definitely felt not as “Hoji like” when I was forward +1.2cm of the mark, but felt great +0.5cm of the mark …..prolly as I was outside the -5cm to -8cm range.

I’ll also measure the tip to tail lengths.

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Originally Posted by mr_pretzel

Probably better to just go from true center, the math isn’t lining up for any of the lengths.

Hoji Mounting

-General Mounting Boot Sole Mid Point Position -5.5 cm behind the true centre of the ski

http://mtnguiding.com/media/2017/1/4...adesravens-too

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Thanks! Think I read that page back in the days when I mounted my renegades and ravens (long gone but missed). I also found my old notes for mounting them for BSL 284mm:

Renegade 186 87,2 cm from tail (-5,8 cm)
Raven 184 86,2 cm from tail (-5,8 cm)

This put me at -6 with 24.5/25.0 288 mm bsl Roxa xrides and heel mount was calculated to allow use of short touring boots as well (which I never did).

Found this gem printed on paper together with my notes:
Attachment 442376

To further confuse myself I measured my hojis along the base and that measurement is 187 cm, so maybe it checks out? Sidewall mounting arrow is spot on 88 from tail. Due to old hole conflict it seems like I would end up at -1,5 from that so -7 with attacks, which seems better than going forward. Sorry for thread drift :D

Figured I would chime in here quickly to help clarify the difference in mount points on 184 Raven, Hoji and Ren. With the Hoji's redesign two seasons ago and a totally new rocker profile, the mount point needed to be adjusted to best suite the Multi Radius rocker profile we updated it with. With 3 different radii extending the length of that ski, the original mount point no longer best served the performance of that ski. Hopefully that answers some questions here
-Sam

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Originally Posted by 4FRNT_Skis

Figured I would chime in here quickly to help clarify the difference in mount points on 184 Raven, Hoji and Ren. With the Hoji's redesign two seasons ago and a totally new rocker profile, the mount point needed to be adjusted to best suite the Multi Radius rocker profile we updated it with. With 3 different radii extending the length of that ski, the original mount point no longer best served the performance of that ski. Hopefully that answers some questions here
-Sam

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Thx Sam,

Cause I was wondering.

I’ll go on the line with the 2023 184 Hojis then (85cm from tail….on the dimple).

And am now on the line with the 2022 184 Ravens (86cm from tail). Hopefully gonna try the remounted Ravens this weekend.

KC




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I think it goes a bit without saying that the article only encompasses the old skis. Herrgard was asking about the 187 which is why I posted it.

So I skied my Ravens today after re-mounting the toe back 1.2cm so that I am back on the rec line. After ending up +1.2cm after being +0.5cm and then going to a 14mm shorter bsl.

Not a shocker but they felt perfect back on the line. Skied them 2 days at Whistler in 10cm of wind blown stuff.

Conclusion : Don’t go forward on Hoji’s skis. Rec feels great.

Last run on Doom and Gloom on Saturday:
Attachment 443850
Attachment 444231

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Mounted these up using the hoji formula for my 28.5 boots which says to put them almost -2 from the line.
Attachment 444883

got them out for a few night ski laps tonight to get a feel for them. Got 3 runs in through some trees with ankle deep mostly untouched snow before I ran out of sunlight and took a few more in a mix of cut up snow and a few bumps.

I’m not 100% sure I know how to ski these things right, but so far they are doing exactly what I wanted. Pivoted effortlessly in tight trees, felt stable enough blowing through the chunk, and skied some really nice moguls (not that I expect them to see many bump runs). Not carving monsters and the edges need a sharpening for more hold on ice, but that’s not what they are for.

Pretty much the polar opposite of my zero G 95s, which is exactly what I am looking for. Probably could have gone with the longer size but I thought the 184s would tour better and I wasn’t sure they would be quite so maneuverable.

Still gotta learn how to best handle them. I’m not 100% sure about the ramp angle on the Xenics combined with these skis…a toe shim may be needed as that much pin delta seems like an odd mix with these skis.