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I just mounted my own fucking bindings, my wife's fucking bindings, and a friends fucking bindings.
And they were all fiddly fucking tele bindings.
Attachment 146175
And I was working on a sleep deficit. And drinking rum. And, they all came out fine. Mostly.
Mount your own fucking skis so that you don't have to deal with the smug "delicate genius"...
While buying bindings:
Shop Guy: do you need these mounted?
Me: no, I'll do it myself.
SG: I don't recommend that.
Me: why not? (big mistake, should've kept my mouth shut)
SG: because if you get them crooked they won't work right.
Me: I won't get them crooked, I've done this before.
At this point, most people just chuckle and say good luck, but this guy wasn't going to let it go. He proceded to lecture me on how it isn't possible to do a good mount without a jig.
Me: Umm... I used to work in a shop, and we mounted (some) bindings without a jig, and they came out fine. Actually, better than fine because we were extra careful.
SG: What store was that, so I know never to go there.
Nice zinger comic book guy.
The irony is that I've seen lots of mistakes with jig mounts (jig crooked, mounted for wrong bsl, one pair closer to the tip than the other, dimples, etc) to the point where I don't even trust most stores not to fuck it up. Not to mention the ridiculous prices.
Did another 2 sets of skis w/inserts this weekend.
One set was the 1st time using bindings I had no template for so I made my own. To bring the difficulty scale up, they are jr skis and the bindings needed to have the max rear bsl adjustability as well, because my friend wanted to share the skis between two kids with different bsl's, so there was no room for a bsl screw up. Then just to challenge myself to the max, I added inserts which had to be filed down a bit.
^^^ nice!
Imagine what a shop would've charged you for that (if they'd even take the job).
Thanks. I didn't even want to ask!Quote:
Originally Posted by pisteoff
A friend cooked up this idea that his 11 yr old girl and 9 yr old boy could share a set of powder skis using a non-demo set of Rossi Axium bindings he had. He also wanted to be able remove the bindings to transport them when he went out West. Unfortunately I couldn't convince him to put Speed Radicals on them too. Anyone make a Axiumfit plate?:fmicon:
Mounted my own fucking skis last week, hammerheads on some katanas and dynafits w inserts on my Lhasa POWs. Yeah
When installing helicoils for BF inserts, how does one proceed? Redrill, retap and install? If so, what size do you redrill for? Or, do you just retap the existing insert hole using the helicoil tap and continue on your way?
Just retap with the helicoil tap, install helicoil. Use lots of epoxy.Quote:
Originally Posted by shafty85
Sent from my VS840 4G using TGR Forums
Hey everyone thanks for the thread and all the information. I am getting ready to mount my first pair of solomon rocker^2 122 tonight. However, I can't find the recommended drill bit size on the top sheet or sidewall of the ski. Any recommendations? I found the template I need and have everything ready to go except I'm hesitant to know how deep or wide I should drill to.
Also, I don't have any epoxy or wood glue to put into the holes, is it necessary or can I use something as extreme as gorilla glue? I don't plan on removing the bindings anytime soon so it's more a curiosity or if I should use something less?
Thanks!
Oh my ... if you read the thread, you'd now that you need a 3.5mm bit with a proper depth collar or a step bit. Metal skis require a 4.1mm bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by mkalynchuk
Could you use Gorilla Glue? Sure, you could, but I could also use candle wax to wax my skis. It doesn't make it a good idea. Gorilla Glue will get all foamy and expand somewhat and dries rather brittle. You don't want that. Proper binding glue, which is really a special wood glue, is what you want. Personally, I only use proper binding glue, but I'll others chime in on what might be appropriate in substitution.
I love this quote.Quote:
Originally Posted by skifishbum
I have a set of bits with depth collars. I must have missed the width recommendations, it's probably not a huge deal about using any glue if I can do a slight tap of the holes? Is binding glue a necessity or recommendation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobcat Sig
Otherwise I might wait until I can run out tomorrow and grab something.
Mounted my own fucking Salomon STH14 drivers last week.
The mount came off without a hitch, and the paper Salomon template was perfect.
Many thanks to all who contributed to this thread.
Anyone know of a paper template for the new solly STH2 hole pattern?
Your depth on either a 3.5 or 4.1 bit is going to 9.5mm. If your unsure, measure the depth of your binding screws. But nearly all skis and bindings call for a 9.5mm depth.Quote:
Originally Posted by mkalynchuk
The glue is a recommendation as it is keeping your screws from backing out while sealing them to the skis and the core to prevent any water into the ski. Using Gorilla Glue is going to make for a mother-fucker if/when you ever want to back out your screws and keep your binding, but it's been down.
Many in this thread do tap their holes. On a metal ski, it's a requirement. For a wood ski, it's preference. I personally do not not as I want as much material displaced and therefore engaged and the screw shank for maximum hold. (that's what she said)
Not that it really matters, but a I think a tapped hole usually has better resistance to pull-out / strength, whatever you want to call it. And epoxy definitely increases strength. Neither is really necessary though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobcat Sig
I don't have the link handy but I'll see if i can find it...
@ mkalynchuk
As Bob said the standard depth for alpine binders is 9.5 mm. The screws should protude approx 8.5 below the bottom of the binding. As for gorilla glue, I don't use it because it expands, but you won't die or anything.
No shit? If you can find the link, I'd love to read up on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by pisteoff
At least in human bone there is no statistical difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobcat Sig
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9122796
But, a tapped screw does tend to follow the pilot hole better.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2899740/
Isn't the interwebs great?
Truth right here.Quote:
Originally Posted by skifishbum
Done at least 10 mounts at home, alpine and dynafit and haven't fucked any of em up before. Most recent one however not so good. Measured my center line off by 5mm, figured it out straight away so crossed it out and remeasured, then proceeded to tape my paper template to the wrong line and drilled. About to screw toe piece on and thinking it looked a little off center. Doh!!!!
or you're just higher than a ponderosa pineQuote:
Originally Posted by skifishbum
Yeah I saw that bone study as well, and I'm sure it's a hellova lot more scientific than what I was talking about. I also think this is purely academic (I've never had a back-out, and the only pull-out I've had broke the whole ski, so who knows)
The link I was thinking about was to some tests performed by someone on TT who posted here as well. The text is gone now that TT is dead, but I found his tables.
And it looks like I didn't remember it 100% correctly either.
http://folks.harbornet.com/zenom/screwtest.jpg
http://stk.tetongravity.com/forums/a...7&d=1298241107
So tapping somewhat improved the strength of a 3.6 pilot hole, and significantly improved the strength of inserts, but reduced the strength of a 4.1 pilot hole. I think (again IIRC) that in the subsequent "discussions" people postulated that the increase in strength from tapping a 3.6 hole was due to the tap cutting cleaner than the screw threads, resulting in less compression damage to the adjacent wood.
As for the 4.1 hole, I'm guessing it's simply less material left to grab - but I'm no engineer - so take that FWIW.
I just use regular outdoor waterproof wood glue.Quote:
Originally Posted by mkalynchuk
I'm not a ski tech, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Interesting that an un-tapped 4.1mm hole held better than an un-tapped 3.6mm hole in a purely wood-core ski.... considering the recommendation for that ski would be the 3.6mm.
Also interesting that they only tested metal topsheet skis with a 3.6 (which is not the usual recommended).
I'll also comment with my non-scientific and limited experience with mounting foam-core skis to suggest that even though pull-out values seem similar with and without tapping in foam core skis, I would recommend tapping anyway. I've had spinners in foam more than any other material, and my hypothesis is because it's difficult to get the thread started in foam... and by the time you do you've done some damage to the thread. Either than or I over-torqued becuase I was using the resistance of wood as a baseline.
Also interesting that tapping helped the 3.6 hole but not the 4.1 when its usually recommended for 4.1 holes in metal skis...
Makes me think maybe I should start drilling and tapping 3.6 for everything regardless of construction.
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all the feedback. Some careful measurement and a slight tap with no glue and everything went really smooth.
The biggest thing was just having confidence in my measurements/center line and after the nerves wore off (once the first hole was drilled) everything else was easy. Bindings are mounted and ill be cruising this weekend no problem!
*edit* I also had a really fun fucking time and I'm sure that also counts =p
Except that a wood core with metal had a higher pullout strength WITHOUT tapping than with, for some reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPowHound
I wonder how many samples of each scenario they took for the results...
But how many beers did you drink?Quote:
Originally Posted by mkalynchuk
None when using power tools and drawing straight lines. However, the post-mount celebration was excellent :) Testing out the bindings tomorrow at Sunshine =]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobcat Sig
-10 points for failure to follow proper mounting protocol. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mkalynchuk
Again, all of this is IIRC...
I think all of the test were performed by one person (over on TTips) and each result is an average of 3 tests. In the top chart, the number in parentheses after the core type indicates an individual ski, i.e. ski 1, ski 2 etc.
Line 4 is pretty cool. The pilot hole is wider than the screw, so that screw that is set purely with epoxy - no threads in the wood at all. Surprisingly good result there.
As for why a 3.6 pilot hole into a metal topsheet... yeah, I don't know. My only guess is that it's "wrong" and he wanted to see what happened.
When it comes to metal topsheets, I would personally stick to the recommended 4.1 pilot hole and tap (at least through the metal). It's just cleaner.
I like geeking out over this stuff as much as the next internet nerd, but it's all just degrees of good enough. Line 7 is the lowest force to pull-out, yet it's how every ski shop does it, and upward pull-outs are extremely rare (or non-existent). I've seen some lateral pull-outs, but the force there was enough to break the ski, so the mount was irrelevant.
The person who performed these tests skied tele, where this stuff is somewhat more applicable due to fewer screws and higher torque.
I'd glue. It prevents water intrusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by mkalynchuk
Back when I worked in a shop, we'd occasionally replace/warranty or relocate bindings, and I've seen some rusty screws (which also means wet cores).
and you probably also saw some rotten wood glueQuote:
Originally Posted by pisteoff
I'd epoxy.
Well... I deserve some heavy jonging for my lazyness. I had a shop mount my adrenalins and they fucked up in every possible way. All screws are crooked as fuck. Worst of all the bindings don't lift. They drilled the back plate almost 1cm off. Fuck. I am mounting my own from now on.
@ Mike - Yeah, I like epoxy too. I should've added "at the very least"
Anyone drill overlapping holes in skis with metal topsheets? Even with a drill press the bit might bend and go in the original hole, no? I am thinking I should fill the original holes with epoxy, then redrill.
If they overlap much the bit would be likely to flex sideways with a drill press, but you can mitigate that well by starting with a very small bit and sizing up. Still probably good to fill first, but even with a fill the metal is likely to cut differently from the epoxy so I'd probably just do both if you're using a press anyway; only takes a couple seconds to swap bits.
You can also insert the bit into the chuck so that only like 1/2" is sticking out. It makes for a much more rigid drill tip.
FWIW, this is probably what I'd do:
Ideally I'd try to find a 1/8" hardwood dowel and epoxy that in place first. Wait at least 24 hours. Then depending on where exactly the new hole needs to go, I might use a sharp punch + hammer to locate the new hole. Going that route, I'd use a regular drill (not drill-press), and drill a small pilot hole to just below the metal. If that's exactly on, I'd drill the full-sized hole. If it's off a little, I'd "finesse" it in the required direction with a small bit before doing the final drill.
Then tap, and install with expoxy.
Good tips thanks.
I think a drilling block will be key here. I can clamp it, and maybe even use a sheet of rubber between the ski and the block. That will keep the bit exactly where I want it.
Since these are adrenalins with the funky screws I am using drive-in inserts. 300 kp/662 lb pull out. What's the average pull out strength for binding freedom inserts?
So what's the consensus on what the shop should do for me? They ain't touching my skis again. I am thinking a refund, cost of inserts and maybe some shop supplies at cost. Sleeziest part was they they just gave me the skis back wrapped up. WTF did they think? I won't notice the heel does not lift?