Westcomb

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

Everyone's raving about the breatheability of the Tango, but nobody's talking about how warm it is.

I have to say that I really don't understand those of you who want a "breathable" insulated jacket. Isn't the warmth/weight ratio far more important? What I am missing? I bought the Rab Xenon cuz it's lighter and warmer than the Atom LT. Dane raved on coldthistle about how it kinda "punched above its weight-class," and that had me sold. Sure, it's not as breatheable as the Atom, but I only wear it when I'm cold—which is mainly when I'm stopped. If I wear it while moving and start to sweat, I simply take it off. Why not just wear a softshell sans insulation if you're really that worried about breatheability?

So school me. What am I missing?

Also: I've been wearing the Skeena hoody since it came out. It works well, but it's kinda been replaced by other stuff in my closet now. I *loved* it when I got it, but I guess I'm jaded now. Seems pretty heavy for what it is. But it fits me really well and it looks nice. Nice around-town jacket, but it rarely sees any use in the mountains anymore.

I was super stoked on the Revenant bib, too, but it's lost much of its waterproofing. Even after DWR treatment, it soaks through. Haven't worn it much, either—since picking up a pair of Trewth bibs, it pretty much just sees winter touring days. Last two times I wore it, it soaked through leaving me cold and wet. Thinking I'll send it back to Westcomb and see what they say. As an aside, I love the upper pockets cuz they're perfect for storing food while touring. But the placement of one of the zippers (likely the side zips) interferes with the waistbelt of a pack (at least three different packs I've tried), and it digs in to my hips. To the point where I start to bleed. Nothing I've tried (save unbuckling the packs waist strap) actually helps. YMMV and all that, just a heads up.

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I mentioned in my review above it's about as warm as a nanopuff from patagucci. Yeah it's not the warmest thing ever, but you can leave it on most of the time it seems.

^^You're right. Sorry, I missed that sentence in your review.

My main point still stands, though. I don't understand why breatheability seems to be a main selling point (rather than warmth) in these types of jacket. I'm not saying you guys are idiots; I'm genuinely trying to understand what I'm missing. Maybe I just live in a warmer climate and run super hot so there's no way I'm wearing an insulated jacket any time I'm moving.

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

^^You're right. Sorry, I missed that sentence in your review.

My main point still stands, though. I don't understand why breatheability seems to be a main selling point (rather than warmth) in these types of jacket. I'm not saying you guys are idiots; I'm genuinely trying to understand what I'm missing. Maybe I just live in a warmer climate and run super hot so there's no way I'm wearing an insulated jacket any time I'm moving.

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I guess it depends on your climate and what you use it for. If you're using it for being around camp or when you stop moving then yeah breathability isn't as big an issue. Sometimes in those situations you are still sweating from the activity.

However if you're using this for something like skinning up on a cold day where you need a bit of warmth still while you're moving it's perfect. Or mt biking on a cold day. I'd REALLY like to see this alpha material used inside a neoshell shell for a resort jacket.

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

^^You're right. Sorry, I missed that sentence in your review.

My main point still stands, though. I don't understand why breatheability seems to be a main selling point (rather than warmth) in these types of jacket. I'm not saying you guys are idiots; I'm genuinely trying to understand what I'm missing. Maybe I just live in a warmer climate and run super hot so there's no way I'm wearing an insulated jacket any time I'm moving.

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I grew up in Minnesota (dang cold). I now live in seattle (not cold at all). So i run real hot and don't really need warmth, especially if i get moving. That's why i look for breathability over warmth. Pretty much anything will be warm enough for me. Make sense?

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Originally Posted by austriker

I grew up in Minnesota (dang cold). I now live in seattle (not cold at all). So i run real hot and don't really need warmth, especially if i get moving. That's why i look for breathability over warmth. Pretty much anything will be warm enough for me. Make sense?

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Not really. If you run that hot, why are you wearing an insulated jacket?! That's the real question I'm asking.

I'm really not trying to be a dick. I'm trying to learn about different layering methods and approaches. Maybe I'll pick up a Tango at some point to compare to my Rab Xenon. I'm just trying to understand why people care so much about breatheability in an insulated jacket. I want my softshells (and hardshells) to optimize waterproofing, weight, and breatheability, but I just want my insulated jackets to maximize the warmth/weight ratio. (Durability also a factor in both, obviously.)

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

I'm just trying to understand why people care so much about breatheability in an insulated jacket.

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I don't get it either. Is it basically a fleece replacement? If so, how is it better? The only time I wear insulation going uphill is when it's very, very cold and I'm with people who are much slower than me, so I'm not sweating.

It's common to throw on insulation when you're sweating at the end of a climb. It's never been a problem for me, but perhaps more breathable insulation would allow your base layers to dry out faster?

I appreciate breathability in a synthetic insulated jacket, but I don't know what I'm doing most of the time anyways. For me it's a replacement for both fleece and down jacket.
I have two different use cases for it:
1. After the ascent for the descent: I usually wear the light insulated jacket as an outer shell when it's dry. As I sweat a lot on my way up I appreciate if the insulated jacket does a good job getting the sweat away when I sweat a little more on my way down. Then I feel much more comfortable when my first layer is not soaked an I'm having the obligatory after tour coffee and pastry (I'm currently in Italy). Plus it is more windproof than a fleece which is nice on the descent and it takes abuse better than a lightweight dow puffy.
2. When it's friggin' cold for resort/slackcountry telemarking: as doing tele lunges gets me quite sweaty, too, I appreciate it if the insulated jacket – which now serves as a mid layer – doesn't get soaked and looses some of its warmth when wet.

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

Not really. If you run that hot, why are you wearing an insulated jacket?! That's the real question I'm asking.

I'm really not trying to be a dick. I'm trying to learn about different layering methods and approaches. Maybe I'll pick up a Tango at some point to compare to my Rab Xenon. I'm just trying to understand why people care so much about breatheability in an insulated jacket. I want my softshells (and hardshells) to optimize waterproofing, weight, and breatheability, but I just want my insulated jackets to maximize the warmth/weight ratio. (Durability also a factor in both, obviously.)

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On the Atom LT vs Xenon...

Breathability, in general, means you will dry out faster. One of Twight's original selling points of the synthetic belay jacket was it is something you can throw on over your softshell/windshirt when you stop moving fast. This will then dry out your sweaty (or wet from precip) "action" layers with the moisture movement encouraged by the temperature (and humidity) gradient between your warm core and the cold air. The less blockage of that process, the faster the transportation takes place. The faster that transportation can take place, the faster you will dry out.

Of course, you still have to maintain that barrier between your core and the cold air to maintain warmth. Fleece doesn't work because it lets the air in and evaporative and convective cooling makes you cold. So it's a balance.

The atom LT is a completely different animal from the Xenon and shouldn't be used in the same way. Think of it more as an action layer like a softshell...but different. It is a combination of something like a lightweight belay jacket and fleece panels. It's pretty darn warm compared to a lightweight windshirt but will also dump a lot of heat pretty fast especially if it's windy. As such, it's not a stand alone piece for warmth but a pretty reasonable option for an action layer on a very cold day. As you noted, it's too breathable to keep you warm when you stop. However, If you throw the Xenon over the top and shut down the rapid heat loss path through the fleece side panels, now you have quite a bit of insulation (essentially 120g/m^2 synthetic insulation which should be 20% warmer than the atom SV) and minimal evaporative/convective cooling for a comparatively pretty small amount of weight in your pack (Xenon is something like 11oz and SV is over 18oz and not as warm as the LT/Xenon system). Basically, with the atom LT you can wear some of your belay jacket while you're moving but not suffer from overheating due to the extremely breathable fleece side panels.

Interesting tidbit: In talking to Steve House (uh oh, name drop!) at the Ouray ice festival, we got on this subject. I always thought of the nanopuff as a very breathable piece and any kind of membrane softshell like the knifeblade as less breathable. He noted that thickness also contributes greatly to the breathability numbers. Thus, simply by being quite thick, the nanopuff doesn't actually breath as well as the knifeblade which has, by definition, a much steeper temperature gradient between the inside and outside of the fabric (assuming it's worn somewhere close to your warm body).

^^Boom! Thanks for droppin' some knowledge on me. Really appreciate the helpful and insightful post.

I guess you confirmed my suspicions—the Atom LT or Tango makes sense if it's really cold and you can wear it without sweating. It's just not that cold where I live and I run really hot anyway. I'd be really curious to see how it would compare to a vapor barrier in those conditions.

PS. Xenon did great on my walk home from class at 33F tonight. That feeling is as close as I've gotten to being in the mountains in months...:(

Can anybody comment on the fit of the Revenant vs. the Mirage. I've got a large Mirage that is a little to tight in the mid-section area, but otherwise fits nicely.

Revenant and mirage fit should be same. Vapor fx opens up nicely

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Originally Posted by whyturn

Revenant and mirage fit should be same. Vapor fx opens up nicely

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Thanks! Anybody have a L Vapor FX they're looking to sell? Probably going to be tough to find one I'm guessing.

There is this one on fleabay

http://m.ebay.com/itm/281223022804

Not mine, but I happened to see it

Large on eBay should work and price is good. I have XL but went From xxl mirage

Update:

So, I now have about 25 nordic tours on my Skeena Hoody. I don't wear it for alpine because I have a Vapor FX for that. The Skeena is probably my favorite piece of outerwear. I find that, temperature-wise, I am comfortable in a range of conditions from below-zero cold to mid-40's while skiing. During very cold days, I wear my R1 underneath and on less cold days, I wear a Cap 3 or similar. It sheds light precipitation and breathes very well. Overall, I have only one complaint. I absolutely cannot stand the elastic cuffs. While the soft fleece lining them slightly deters irritation, I find that on longer excursions, my glove cuff still manages to chafe my wrist.

Have 3 seasons now on my vapor fx
Performs flawlessly and still in near perfect shape after many times through tight trees smacking branches. It's been great here in Canada and hope the don't discontinue freeride line

Finally put my westcomb eVent jacket through the ringer. Went backpacking in the Olympics with it. And I must say it breathed far better than gore would. I was very impressed. I wish it would stop my sweat however, but that'd be a miracle for the gods.

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Could anyone here compare the fit of the Apoc to others brands ? At the moment I have a Peak Heli Alpine Jacket in L but I would like to have a bit more space for layering as I always wear a back protector for freeriding.

I don't know how much help this is, but I don't find any of my Westcomb shells to be roomy. Their fit is fairly consistent across their entire line, and I sized up compared to Patagonia (M->L). Even the "freeride cut" of the vapor fx shell is fairly trim.

Anyone know if Westcomb is nearly out of business? Nobody talks about them anymore and don't see much of their stuff for sale online, and their web store price for the Revenant ski shell is a whopping $750 USD. Maybe they're just selling remaining inventory from a storage unit or something?

Love my Revenant from 2014 or so, was a Steep & Cheap score for about $180. Would like a new one in another color and like eVent a lot, but even if there was one at a Spring clearance sale at half price, it would still be ~$400 and pretty spendy.

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Originally Posted by 1000-oaks

Anyone know if Westcomb is nearly out of business?
... Revenant ski shell is a whopping $750 USD.

...Love my Revenant from 2014 or so, was a Steep & Cheap score for about $180.

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No idea if they are still in biz but they sure made some sweet shit. I still have a stone mint womens large Vapor that I can't seem to sell for $100. Hard to believe as it's as nice a shell as anything that Arcteryx has made.

They responded to my email and their Facebook page is still active, maybe they tried to use the Kjus $$$$ business model and it didn't take off.

They make great stuff. I've been surprised they haven't become a bigger presence over the last 10 years.

Oh, and made in Canada is sweet.

Love my vapor fx