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Anyone actually used both? Any difference?
Primary concerns:
Breathability
Waterproofness
Durability
Have credit w/ Marmot and have always used Gore-Tex, but the Membrain stuff is cheaper and has some nice touches ala thigh pockets, vents etc.
In addition, anyone know if the Marmot Terminus Pants have gaitors?
I have searched and didn't find a whole hell of a lot.
the north face has hyvent, mountain hardwear has conduit, marmot has membrain. all of them are imitations of gore-tex, but my understanding is that none are as breathable as the real deal.
The deal is that the patent on Gore-tex ran out a few years ago, so all of a sudden other companies could start making their own version. Of course the folks at Gore had an ace up their sleeves. They patented XCR, which is a more breathable version. So now everyone else can make the original, but only Gore can make XCR. In another 20 years they'll come up with something even better.
I've used goretex, GT XCR and membrane.
I definitely noticed a pretty big difference in the membrane when compared to gore tex and XCR when pushing aerobically. Membrane doesn't breathe anywhere near as well as regular goretex and XCR.
If you tend to overheat when pushing it go for the gore tex or better yet the XCR.
HOLY SHIT! Can you say "OH SNAP!!"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Blue
if you work with or around petroleum products, stick with the goretex. membrane products don't hold up as well to them. goretex just happens to be nonreactive to the petroleum and breaths better.
Check this out. Pretty informative if independent and true. Membrain ~= Goretex < XCR.
This is great info. Do you know if they have redone the tests more recently? I note it doesn't cover some of the newer stuff like Patagonia's H2No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby
The way I understand it from discussions over at backpackinglight.com, Gore-Tex was the original but they had problems with lasting breathability because of the build-up of oils clogging the pores. XCR was the next version which added a layer to protect membrane from body oils and dirt, at the EXPENSE of some breathability. What this means is original gore-tex is initially MORE breathable than XCR but not over product life.
BHA industries' eVent is actually the most breathable membrane available because it solves the oil buildup problem by treating the material so that it is resistant to oils and not by adding another layer like XCR does.
eVent is also cheaper, but materials using it tend to be heavier than those with XCR (more backing material), and gore has staying power with consumers and contracts with manufacturers (arc'teryx). That's why eVent has been picked up by so few companies. The notable ones I do know that use it though are wildthingsgear.com, Integral Designs, and Helly Hansen.
That should pretty much answer every question with regards to breathability and membranes. :p
Nope. I only found it through google while searching for information on Dermizax, which is Bergans' material of choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by DerJaeger
I had some P'gucci H2no bibs for awhile. The bib delamanated and left me soaking wet on an overnight trip, while my gore-tex jacket was warm and dry. Not impressed. I'm back to Gore-Tex only.
Ive looked for some event stuff, and I didn't see any Helly Hansen with it, at least not ski stuff. Ground is making a jacket with it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dug
yeah, I can't find one either. Looks like HH doesn't use it anymore. I remember they did last season though.
I remember having a hard (impossible) time finding event jackets that had both pitzips and powder skirts. :(
Until I find a jacket that I really like, I'm sticking to my beat up marmot precip.
Was I the only one surprised to see Schoeller WB-400 the LEAST breathable of all fabrics tested? That's a soft shell going against hardshells. And eVent spanked that sample.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby
Dug, I found this on the eVent website:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dug
http://www.eventfabrics.com/eVent_technology.phpQuote:
Pit-zips are a strange phenomenon. They were invented many years ago to add ventilation to poorly breathable garments: just cut a hole in it to add ventilation. Today pit-zips are as standard as the 4 wheels on your car. We have come to rely on them without questioning their purpose. Our Direct Venting™ makes pit-zips obsolete. It could shave 2-3 ounces off a jacket, and make cooling off less embarrassing on the chairlift.
Hah, that take on active venting is laughable. They're not going to make many inroads with the "serious user" croud with that kind of attitude. I don't care how breathable the material is, I still sweat in cotton.
I think that original gore-tex you're talking about, which had oil clogging problems, was a really long time ago and is not what we call standard gore-tex. They solved that problem within a few years (long ago) by adding a PU coating to the membrane, and that's what we call standard gore-tex. The PU drastically reduced the breathability but made it more durable. XCR is supposed to be more breathable right from the beginning (maybe it has a thinner PU coating?) Look at the graphs linked by Toby, those were certainly taken with new jackets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dug
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dug
MEC makes one out of Entrant. drive on up!
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_d...=1162244764984
if you sweat -- don't wear cotton...
At first I thought you were reading the graph backwards, but then I looked and you're right. Weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by IrieRon
I was even more surprised to see that the Entrant GII in my $100 spyder pants is more breathable than XCR.Quote:
Originally Posted by IrieRon
Fuck eVent's stand on pitzips. It isn't about breathability only, it is about temperature control too! Pit zips are more weather protected than front zips. Pit zips allow you to avoid having to layer up and down as often. They are so proud of their breathability that they can't see the forest for their tree.
I have an eVent shell from TeVa with pit zips. Sweet...
doesn't schoeller wb400 have a fleece backing? If so, it's not really fair to compare it directly to 'shells' since the fleece could impede breathability.Quote:
Originally Posted by shmerham
Keep in mind that is a very controlled test, with completely still air - in real life there is usually some wind, or at least you're moving and pushing air around inside the jacket. With some wind, soft shells that aren't totally wind-proof will let out a lot more moisture than a wind-proof hardshell.
Good point. Yes, the wb-400 is a thicker material with insulating qualities. Obviously not the same as just a shell.Quote:
Originally Posted by davep
Why should zipping or un-zipping my pit zips be embarrassing?Quote:
...and make cooling off less embarrassing on the chairlift.
I just bought a Marmot Rubicon jacket with XCR. Very eager to try it out in the snow and see how it works, especially compared to the 10 year old Sportif Gore Tex jacket (with no pit zips or any other venting) it's replacing.
5 year Gore-Tex XCR report? Still going strong (Arc'Teryx Sidewinder SV)
The coat has paid for itself, and only been retreated once.
Its been worn summer, winter, snow, rain, gales, offshore, on mountains, fishing, skiing, wandering aimlessly around the world, and getting beaten to shit by waves in the surf.