Car search advices

Hey folks. So we sold our cars when we moved to Spain and we're now back in the market.

We used to have a 2011 Pilot. Never really had any problems with it. Towed a raft trailer. Towed a pop-up, loaded, with trouble over passes and I-70. The tow capacity was 4500 all-in, but pretty sure we won't over that with loaded trailer with all our biking or rafting stuff strapped to is, plus 4 people in the car. Slowed down, but was able to mostly avoid any trailer wobble. We have kids and used the third row on occasion. Generally had enough room to do anything except sleep in the vehicle, which I don't normally do anyway.

Now I was thinking I would join the 4Runner club. But I am turned off by the low gas mileage. Then I saw that a 4Runner doesn't get better towing capacity than a Highlander (gas version), which seems just nuts. The highlander gets better mileage and is a smoother ride.

Some folks were pointing me towards bigger suvs like sequoia but that thing is fucking expensive. So even though I'd like more headroom on towing, it seems like a late-model used highlander is the way to go.. But I read that highlanders switched from V6 to V4 turbo this year so not sure how much that would affect towing.

WWMD?

Here are my needs:

Mountains all weather ski access
Ability to tow travel trailer or pop up loaded with water gas supplies plus camping and bikes or rafting (3 trips year maybe 1 long road trip)
Ability to tow raft trailer fully loaded (less of an issue)
4 passengers on the regular with sometimes car pool with third row needed
City driver for Boulder and including parking garage with my work (I go 1-2 a week to the office)
Gas mileage not terrible (other car will be electric)
Long dirt rutted high clearance but not 4 wheel roads except when I fuck up, bo 4 wheelin for fun but some to get into camps put ins trail heads

Wants:
sunroof
touch screen/back up cam
phone compatibility

New Land Cruiser? Or the Sequoia.

Attachment 491644

https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/highlander

Kia Telluride has been at the top of that list for a long while now, though I’d personally be very interested in the Mazda.

Me personally, I wouldn’t buy a body-on-frame (like a truck) SUV unless I really needed that.

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Originally Posted by stupendous man

Hey folks. So we sold our cars when we moved to Spain and we're now back in the market.

We used to have a 2011 Pilot. Never really had any problems with it. Towed a raft trailer. Towed a pop-up, loaded, with trouble over passes and I-70. The tow capacity was 4500 all-in, but pretty sure we won't over that with loaded trailer with all our biking or rafting stuff strapped to is, plus 4 people in the car. Slowed down, but was able to mostly avoid any trailer wobble. We have kids and used the third row on occasion. Generally had enough room to do anything except sleep in the vehicle, which I don't normally do anyway.

Now I was thinking I would join the 4Runner club. But I am turned off by the low gas mileage. Then I saw that a 4Runner doesn't get better towing capacity than a Highlander (gas version), which seems just nuts. The highlander gets better mileage and is a smoother ride.

Some folks were pointing me towards bigger suvs like sequoia but that thing is fucking expensive. So even though I'd like more headroom on towing, it seems like a late-model used highlander is the way to go.. But I read that highlanders switched from V6 to V4 turbo this year so not sure how much that would affect towing.

WWMD?

Here are my needs:

Mountains all weather ski access
Ability to tow travel trailer or pop up loaded with water gas supplies plus camping and bikes or rafting (3 trips year maybe 1 long road trip)
Ability to tow raft trailer fully loaded (less of an issue)
4 passengers on the regular with sometimes car pool with third row needed
City driver for Boulder and including parking garage with my work (I go 1-2 a week to the office)
Gas mileage not terrible (other car will be electric)
Long dirt rutted high clearance but not 4 wheel roads except when I fuck up, bo 4 wheelin for fun but some to get into camps put ins trail heads

Wants:
sunroof
touch screen/back up cam
phone compatibility

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I have an 06 highlander, and have had a few friends who have had the same vintage. They're sick. They do WAY better off road than you would expect. In fact, right up until ground clearance becomes the issue, my highlander is better off road than really any SUV i know of. THe 2006 sport model has an inch extra ground clearance and inch bigger wheels, so thats sick. They don't offer that option on the newer onesthough sadly. But they have good ramp agnles, good brakes, and excellent super low range torque. Any vehicle I've been in before thats had this much torque at like a tenth of a mile an hour was something with a dedicated low gear range you had to shift into. You can just crawl up stuff, there is virtually never anything you need momentum for unless traction is an issue and traction is almost never an issue. The car won't slide and drift and do donuts like a subaru, but in terms ofjust not getting stuck tractions its amazing. I've thrashed mine through all sorts of snow, mud sand etc. It's the most un get stuckable road vehicle I've everdriven. Its two handicaps are its lack of ground clearance when compared to a real truck chassis, and, sometimes, when I' have been off roading the shit ot of mine, you can hear the frame creak a little bit, like you can tell it just isn't as strong as a truck chassis and maybe isn't meant for off road stuff that puts it at such extreme angles that the frame of the vehicle is under stress by being bent torsion ally or something. But its always handled it fine and is way lighter better traction etc than anything with a real truck chassis.

In regards to towing capacity gas mileage etc, toyota especially, but other manufacturers too, have made things kind of weird. Basically, they design their larger vehicles to be optimized to achieve the best possible gas mileage in testing during the perfect conditions, completely empty vehicle good tires, on pavement. Unfortunately, they are not designed for good gas mileage hauling weight, weather towing or just in the truck, and real world mileage plummets. Also, strangely, the highlander's manufaturer suggested weight limits are higher compared to its weight and gas mileage, than the tacoma/4 runner can relative to either their weight or gas mileage. Highlanders also do way better when overloaded past their suggested useable weight than the trucks do. Some of this is of course just having a lower center of gravity, but it also just seems like the trucks oddly enough aren't designed for it, because they have designed around getting the best 'on paper' gas mileage instead.

Everything I said might be completly wrong for the most recent few years, but it was correct as of not that long ago.

The towing requirement rules out a lot of crossovers that use CVT transmissions. Keep that in mind when searching.

^^ This!

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Originally Posted by El Chupacabra

The towing requirement rules out a lot of crossovers that use CVT transmissions. Keep that in mind when searching.

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Toyota Grand or regular Highlander Hybrid towing capacity is 3500 lbs, has ECVT transmission. Grand Highlander Hybrid Max is 5000 lbs. with 6 speed conventional transmission. Max get significantly lower gas mileage due to larger engine.

Do not fear the Toyota ECVT transmission, the only thing in common between the ECVT and a traditional CVT is they are both transmissions. Plenty of YouTube videos explaining how it works. It does not have the steel belt or cones of a CVT. The Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive uses two electric motors that are used to power the vehicle at low speeds, starts the engine when the ICE is required and double as generators to charge the battery. Larger motor kicks in when you need additional power / torque to assist the ICE.

I have a Grand Highlander Limited Hybrid "on order" being built late April. Lead time for GH Hybrid is months, one dealer I talked to called it a unicorn. Technically you can't order one, I had my name in with three dealers,. When they find out what they are getting they call and tell you what trim it is, the color, options on it and ask if you want it. I was 24th on one dealers list, he said figure 9 - 12 months if you are not picky about color. I test drove a regular Highlander, only GH Hybrid I saw was a used one with 6000 miles at Karl Malone in SLC. They were asking essentially MSRP even though it was used. Only good thing about waiting is the dealer doesn't get to add a bunch of goofy paint protection, undercoating or fabric protection before he sells it.

I agree that Toyota's E CVT is much more reliable than the typical CVT. Mrs C has a RAV4 hybrid with that transmission. It works well, no issues so far, but only around 50K miles on it.

Anecdotes aside, a 3500# tow limit is quite low. Probably OK if that's a tent trailer OP tows, but any hard side is pushing it. I don't like towing at the limits.

Used Lexus GX 460, if you can tolerate the somewhat terrible mpg.

Grand Cherokee can tow 6200 and has 3rd option.

I’ve had.
Highlander
4Runner
Grand Cherokee
Honda Passport.

Cherokee was the nicest all around and towed the most. My wife leased it though so took away the repair anxiety of Jeep ownership but never had any issues.

Based on fully loaded, what your towing/hauling, combined with mountain passes, I would be looking at a minimum 5000 towing capacity, though personally I would look in the 6000 to 8000lb capacity. It will give you the ability to tow comfortably up I70 etc. yes you’ll suffer in mpg but you make up for it in all around drive ability for what you want to do. From a resale/reliability standpoint I’d look at the 4Runner.

Are you looking at new, used, ?? You say that Highlander and 4 runner have same tow capacity but that can't be the case across all models and years and engines.

Also, payload of the car plays into towing capacity, what are those?

You want only Japanese manufacturers (that some are assembled in USA and of course plenty of parts from manufacturing plants all over the world.) Or would Korean, European or even US car manufacturers be on the list of acceptable brands also? Jeep, Ford, Chevrolet and Kia or even Volvo V90 -which is what a friend of mine has for pulling his boats when needed.

New or would used be also considered?

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...best-3-row-suv discusses the 3rd row seating vehicles out there and maybe worth a read for some insight and then compare the towing capacities to see if any would be immediately off the list (like say a Mitsubishi Outlander that is 2000 lb capacity and some others like Santa Fe or Sorento easily eliminated on there probably would be too low of load capacity.)

The 5000 I think is all-in, GVPM. And the hybrid is the one that gets 3500 v 5000 afaik. I don't know all models all years. The 4runner I was told had a bigger engine that could tow more pre-09.

Used, lower mileage is how I like to play it. You avoid the lemons and the new car price tag. I've read the Kias fall apart relatively quick.

I think we drive around town in it way more than towing which increases the mileage value

Unicorn is a great horse except for the pointy part.

Anything that's truly good at towing will have low fuel efficiency and a generally rougher ride. And body on frame trucks make terrible daily drivers for longer commutes.

Specific to current gen 4runners:
- The 3rd row seat is kid sized. It also eats some of the cargo space and makes the lift higher for putting stuff in.
- Towing capacity is lower than other trucks because the gear ratios are taller - 1st is about 3.5:1 and you can't use D to tow, so 4th is 1:1 (the diff is about 3.7)
- More cabin noise (wind and tires) above about 45 mph than higher end unibody SUVs
- No matter how you drive it, fuel economy never doesn't suck

If you want to tow 6000+ with an SUV that has third row option, and don't want to break the bank, look at a 10-12 year old Chevy Tahoe with about 100k miles.

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

Unicorn is a great horse except for the pointy part.

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That is a great expression, ideally suited for the OP.


I would be careful of using towing capacity as a true measure of towing ability. The payload is a more all inclusive measure of safety and ability once you have your passengers and gear loaded in the vehicle, in other words real world use. Bigger payload requires stronger axles and tires with higher weight carrying capacities. I'd be looking for a 3/4T Suburban/Expedition XL if the 3rd row was a must. Gas mileage is going to suck no matter what vehicle you choose.

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Originally Posted by stupendous man

Used, lower mileage is how I like to play it.

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Me too, but this strategy doesn’t usually save you much $$ with Toyotas, especially if looking at something less than ~3-5 years old. The flip side is that you can get something older with more miles and not be too worried that it will grenade on you.

FWIW since you mentioned it, the previous generation 4Runner (2003-2009) was available in V6 and V8 iterations, with the V6 far more common. The V8s are the better tow vehicle (with the associated mpg tradeoff), although we towed a 3000 lb trailer with the V6 for a while and it was fine. My impression was that even that V6 towed and drove better than the current generation.
Hard to find a clean example of any 2003-09 these days in CO that isn’t beat to hell, but if you’re patient I’m sure they’re out there.

My family of 5 has rocked a Suburban for a long time, I got the 6.2 motor and pulling a 6000lb trailer is a breeze. It's not our daily driver, it's our long distance, fully loaded, tow vehicle. Fits everybody, gear, dogs, towing capacity, I wouldn't trade it for anything. Now if I was looking for a quiver of one that could still do it all while getting slightly better mileage I would probably buy the same but get the 5.3 instead or if I figure out how to pack better downsize to a Tahoe. Like I said though it ain't my daily so gas mileage isn't really an issue for me as much as towing comfortably over Red Mountain and Wolf Creek passes

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Originally Posted by Hopeless Sinner

I would be careful of using towing capacity as a true measure of towing ability. The payload is a more all inclusive measure of safety and ability once you have your passengers and gear loaded in the vehicle, in other words real world use. Bigger payload requires stronger axles and tires with higher weight carrying capacities. I'd be looking for a 3/4T Suburban/Expedition XL if the 3rd row was a must. Gas mileage is going to suck no matter what vehicle you choose.

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3/4-ton vehicle seems a bit overkill for a tent trailer.

The suggestion for a used Lexus GX is a solid one. More powerful than 4Runner that OP expressed an interest in, and has tiny 3rd row seating if he only needs to carry kids or dwarves. Mileage will suck at all times. But good build quality.

Given that OP referred to four cylinder engines as a V4, I'm guessing that he's not going to be doing s lot of wrenching himself, so that probably leans in favor of reliable, well built, and newer - - and not a '94 Suburban with a 454, or something else cheap yet burly.

Payload isn't necessarily the best indicator of towing ability, though I'd agree that high payload capacity will come with high tow limits. A 1/2-ton Yukon etc would do fine. A Tundra has low payload but beefy drivetrain and would be a solid tow vehicle - - OP didn't indicate an interest in pickup trucks though.

OP, why not just buy another Honda Pilot or Acura MDX? Anything your old one didn't do well enough for your intended needs?

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Originally Posted by El Chupacabra

3/4-ton vehicle seems a bit overkill for a tent trailer.

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Yes, however my main point is about using towing capacity as a guideline for choosing a tow vehicle.

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Originally Posted by yeahman

If you want to tow 6000+ with an SUV that has third row option, and don't want to break the bank, look at a 10-12 year old Chevy Tahoe with about 100k miles.

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That is entirely too comfortable and reasonable of a suggestion. No Boulder street cred either.

I have a 2016 pilot and tent trailer, it’s fine but only gets ok gas mileage. I used to have a q7 tdi and a fiberglass trailer, that thing towed like a boss. I wouldn’t tow a hardside over mountains in a 5000lb rated crossover but the popup is fine. If I wanted to tow more and have a third row the 2017+ q7 with a 3.0t would be a sweet choice.

Friendly reminder that towing capacity is also about your ability to stop. Most 6 cylinder or reved up 4's can effectively pull a lot of weight, even over a pass. Very few can stop adequately in an emergency situation, especially after riding the brakes halfway down said pass. It's why bigger trucks have really large, often ventilated brakes.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by yeahman

If you want to tow 6000+ with an SUV that has third row option, and don't want to break the bank, look at a 10-12 year old Chevy Tahoe with about 100k miles.

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The 5.3 4x4 is rated at 22mpg highway with RUG, which tops GX, 4R and all other full-size competitors besides €€€ diesels. We are still GX shopping because of the size and the lack of miles I plan to put on it, but the the performance, reliability and value of the Tahoe is pretty impossible to beat.