softshell jacket (yes, again)

i know, there are plenty of other threads regarding softshell jackets and i have tried to read them all (almost).

I must confess that before discovering this place of perdition i thought that you could only use a hardshell.
Then you gently persuaded me to buy a Mammut softshell pant. But on the jacket I am still confused.
I have a Arcteryx Proton which is very similar to Patagonia Nano air, so it can be used on the way up since it breathes very well, and it can be used on the way down under a hard shell since provides insulation.
And i thought that the Proton IS a softshell.

Today i saw this https://arcteryx.com/it/en/shop/mens/procline-jacket
and as you can see in this video
https://images.arcteryx.com/videos/p...ield.mp4#t=5.5

there is the Proton/Atom under the softshell, so it would be a softshell above a softshell.

Just sticking to the Arteryx example for sake of simplicity:
what do you consider a softshell: the Atom/Proton or the Procline?
would it be common to have Nano/Atom/Proton under the Procline?
Would you use a jacket like the Procline also on the way down? is it a replacement or a complement to a hardshell?
how many things do you keep in the backpack then (windshirt, puffy, nano air, softshell, hardshell, etc)?
i see the Procline is windproof, but not waterproof. Do you simply check the forecast and then decide what to bring, or carry both hardshell and softshell?

thanks a lot!

I mostly just use an Atom LT for my outer layer, up and down. Sometimes I'll throw a windshirt on top if it's really windy. I honestly don't recall the last time I used a shell jacket for BC skiing.

Atom is a "mid" layer but mid is the new outer.

We all run different. I only use a mid layer if it is really windy or very cold. Otherwise a no membrane soft shell covers everything until it’s too warm on the up

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Originally Posted by cat in january

We all run different. I only use a mid layer if it is really windy or very cold. Otherwise a no membrane soft shell covers everything until it’s too warm on the up

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You're also near sea level while I am touring early morning near the continental divide most often. "What layers should I wear?" is impossible to answer without knowing what the weather is generally like.

Wool base layer with an OR Ferrosi jacket (highly breathable stretchy shell) for the up. I keep a light Puffy in the pack for the summit and descent under the Ferrosi if needed.

Point being, the OR Ferrosi is a favorite for many folks.

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Originally Posted by singlecross

Wool base layer with an OR Ferrosi jacket (highly breathable stretchy shell) for the up. I keep a light Puffy in the pack for the summit and descent under the Ferrosi if needed.

Point being, the OR Ferrosi is a favorite for many folks.

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wouldnt a breathable softshell too "windy" on the way down when you go faaaast?
what blows my mind is that some SOFT (Nano, Proton, and i guess also Ferrosi) are air-permeable, soft/supple to the touch, while some other softshell are windproof, more rigid and made with material not so soft. So to me they look like two different jacket, while it seems you call them all "softshell".

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Originally Posted by lorcar

wouldnt a breathable softshell too "windy" on the way down when you go faaaast?
what blows my mind is that some SOFT (Nano, Proton, and i guess also Ferrosi) are air-permeable, soft/supple to the touch, while some other softshell are windproof, more rigid and made with material not so soft. So to me they look like two different jacket, while it seems you call them all "softshell".

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Atom LT, nano air, etc are not softshells by any standard, they’re typically considered mid layers.

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Originally Posted by bean

Atom LT, nano air, etc are not softshells by any standard, they’re typically considered mid layers.

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This. Softshell is just that, typically a woven synthetic fabric that is air permeable and water resistant usually meant to be worn as an outer layer. The woven pattern determines how breathable/weather resistant it is plus some of these have a backing fabric that further impacts this.

Proton, Atom, etc are insulated mid-layers not softshells. They’re either meant to be worn as a standalone when weather is cold but there’s little to no precip. In my experience all of these are way too warm to tour in but I do throw one over my softshell (if it’s windy, cold, snowing) or baselayer (if weather is generally calm) at the top for the descent if it’s windy and cold.

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Originally Posted by GoSlowGoFar

Proton, Atom, etc are insulated mid-layers not softshells. They’re either meant to be worn as a standalone when weather is cold but there’s little to no precip. In my experience all of these are way too warm to tour in but I do throw one over my softshell (if it’s windy, cold, snowing) or baselayer (if weather is generally calm) at the top for the descent if it’s windy and cold.

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now i am even more confused. The Atom ABOVE a softshell? you write that they are for no precip, then you put over when snowing. Is just a typo? also dont see how a midlayer could fit over a softshell. My Proton is too permeable to be worn as external layer for the descent when it's windy.

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Originally Posted by lorcar

now i am even more confused. The Atom ABOVE a softshell? you write that they are for no precip, then you put over when snowing. Is just a typo? also dont see how a midlayer could fit over a softshell. My Proton is too permeable to be worn as external layer for the descent when it's windy.

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Not trying to confuse you, but yes put the synthetic insulating layer over your softshell on descents or if you’re standing around for a rest /transitioning. It keeps all the body heat you’ve generated insulated as opposed to taking off your jacket, losing that heat, and then putting the insulating layer on and then the softshell on top. Also saves time and less fiddling with multiple layers. I usually try to find a trimmer fitting softshell and a regular/relaxed fitting mid-layer and it goes over the softshell just fine.

Obviously if it’s nuking snow or raining, layer it underneath but the Atom and Proton can handle light snow without wetting out and one of the benefits of synthetic insulation is it still keeps your warm even when wet.

so many different approaches - as mentioned above is weather, location, activity, and personal physiology dependant.

but yeah - Atom/Nano etc are not "softshells" - of course different versions of these midlayer insulating jackets can come with various levels of outer "shell" fabric protection - likely trading breathability for more wind/wet protection

The Atom LT is such a versatile jacket though - and as they age they just become less insulating and probably more breathable - so they kinda transition into other kinds of uses. My ten year old Atom LT is now what I bring along for cool temps in the summer - whereas my newer version is into the winter rotation.

Despite having a puffy jacket addiction/collection these Atom LT see the most use

Love the merino base and schoeller wb400 softshell with or without a mid layer (digging the alpha mids the most right now) depending on conditions but that's along the divide where it's chilly and usually pretty dry.

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Originally Posted by GoSlowGoFar

Not trying to confuse you, but yes put the synthetic insulating layer over your softshell on descents or if you’re standing around for a rest /transitioning. It keeps all the body heat you’ve generated insulated as opposed to taking off your jacket, losing that heat, and then putting the insulating layer on and then the softshell on top. Also saves time and less fiddling with multiple layers. I usually try to find a trimmer fitting softshell and a regular/relaxed fitting mid-layer and it goes over the softshell just fine.

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This. I skied a few times with @neck beard and he made me re-think my entire layering system for touring. Baselayer + softshell/hardshell stays on me the entire day and I add/remove layers based on the temp and elements.

Yeah, words matter ya know.
The Exemplar in the class seems to be the Arc Gamma LT. Everyone seems to love it for its intended purpose. I'm not made of money though so bought an outdoor research San Juan jacket last spring. $249 vs $90.
Fucking love it.
Just about the right protection/windblocking ( for me) with a decent DWR. The San Juan replaced the Ferrosi which i just found problematic due to being to breezy/non protective when the weather was funky but too warm otherwise. Still use the ferrosi as a midlayer on colder days.
I use a Mt Hardwear Preshell as a very light mid and top layer depending on the conditions.

What exactly is a softshell anyhoo? Pretty amorphous concept IMO. I'd argue that some of the very thin and breathable softshells ( ferrosi, mountain hardwear preshell, patta houdini AIR-not the regular version, etc) are just breathable windshirts. Ferrosi is kinda on the break point between a more classic softshell and a windshirt. There's zip up cycling tops that do the same thing pretty much. The lightest of these variety are more like using a second long sleeve baselayer than what you'd legit call a jacket.

Anything with a membrane and/or completely blocks the wind just shouldnt be called a softshell.

Nano-air and it's ilk are really just a lightweight insulated, but still breathable softshell. I kinda know the Proton but not really. I've got an old Atom lt from a little while back with the fleece underarm sides but thin synthetic insulation and shell everywhere else.
It's too damn warm for me to ski with unless its below 15*. Not sure but think the Atom has been redesigned since then?
Bought the Strafe Alpha Direct Insulator last year as a more breathable alternative. Nice piece but still too warm.
Why did everyone decide fleece sucked? Breathability is king for me and the the thin puffies just don't work as a mid at all. Moving forward i think I'm gonna look for a very thin fleece vest.
I really feel like all the new thin synthetic psuedo puffs are just reinventing fleece. My Strafe insulator is just a fleece with a softshell.

Ack thread drift, sorry.

I wear a base layer with a wind shirt (Houdini) over it. If you run colder a light softshell can replace the wind shirt. I wear breathable insulation (such as the Proton) over the wind shirt if I'm cold. That's it for 99% of the time I'm touring. I run hot and don't sweat much.

You don't need to put a shell (hard or soft) over your other clothes in order to ski down a mountain. It usually adds nothing except partners waiting for you to adjust your pointless layers.

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Originally Posted by HotSchmoo

Why did everyone decide fleece sucked? Breathability is king for me and the the thin puffies just don't work as a mid at all. Moving forward i think I'm gonna look for a very thin fleece vest.
I really feel like all the new thin synthetic psuedo puffs are just reinventing fleece. My Strafe insulator is just a fleece with a softshell.

Ack thread drift, sorry.

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I think the main thing with the synthetic insulation vs fleece is the ability to have a water resistant layer to protect the insulation. I think fleece definitely still has it’s place in cold dry climates. I’ve had good success with just running a baselayer tshirt and the R1 techface, the techface give it more of those softshell/weather resistance properties but still breathes pretty well. Still too warm for me unless it’s in the teens but I think its good fleece option.

For touring I usually use a wool or poly t shirt and my Eddie Bauer knock off nano air if it’s below 25f. Soft shell on the transition and off at the bottom. Sometimes a heavier puffy if it’s really cold on the transitions. If it’s warmer I use the same base t shirt and something like an R1, any light grid fleece.

Regular fleece is fine as long as you aren’t in the trees with snow falling on you. They collect snow in my experience


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OP are we talking about touring or ski area use too? It makes a difference. Also I don't ever use a hardshell while touring unless im expecting heavy snow. Or rain😢.
FWIW I think a discussion of dressing for touring/mountaineering is in order.
Similar to Black Diamonds post above, lots of people don't carry a traditional mid layer AT ALL.
In orher words, keep it simple stupid. People get crazy geeked out on all these newfangled techy layers. Most of em aren't really necessary.
So for example, for me:
50/50 wool/synthetic baselayer.
Only One of the three below, depending on conditions.
[ Mt Hardwear Preshell
Ferrosi
Fleece/my Strafe insulator if its especially cold. ]

Outdoor research San Juan softshell for downhilling or if it's feeling colderand windy.

Medium puffy Atom Lt for over the top of everything while taking breaks.
OR
Massive Puffy Patagonia Hyperpuff for over the top of everything while taking breaks.

I really try to not carry a heavy midlayer though.

This has all been discussed before .....


Lift served use of course throughs a while different wrench into the works.

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Originally Posted by Stenis

This. I skied a few times with @neck beard and he made me re-think my entire layering system for touring. Baselayer + softshell/hardshell stays on me the entire day and I add/remove layers based on the temp and elements.

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wow, i really cant see my hardshell being under anything besides the big puffy.
Which brand/models do you use? or it's just a matter of buying the different sizes?

I never wear a hard shell ski touring. If it’s warm enough with wet snow or rain I’m pulling the plug. A nano air or quality soft shell will shed snow if it’s cold enough to tour. I keep a really light rain shell or even poncho in the bottom of the pack in case of emergency and I get caught out in the rain. I don’t know how people tour in a hard shell.


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Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

You don't need to put a shell (hard or soft) over your other clothes in order to ski down a mountain. It usually adds nothing except partners waiting for you to adjust your pointless layers.

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for me it would be crucial to have wind blocking + when I fall i would need a layer that doesn't soak snow and doesn't break apart. I took so many damages that would have torn apart the Proton, but the hardshell resisted pretty well.
I am learning so many things in this thread. I never saw anyone coming down just with baselayer and houdini.

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Originally Posted by HotSchmoo

Anything with a membrane and/or completely blocks the wind just shouldnt be called a softshell.

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the arcteryx in Goretex Infinium which i posted first is windproof. So that should not be labeled as softshell.
https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/procline-jacket

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Originally Posted by lorcar

for me it would be crucial to have wind blocking + when I fall i would need a layer that doesn't soak snow and doesn't break apart. I took so many damages that would have torn apart the Proton, but the hardshell resisted pretty well.
I am learning so many things in this thread. I never saw anyone coming down just with baselayer and houdini.

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Are you falling on rocks and trees? Any of these layers can and will hold up just fine if you fall in snow and in the occasional brush against vegetation.

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Originally Posted by GoSlowGoFar

Are you falling on rocks and trees? Any of these layers can and will hold up just fine if you fall in snow and in the occasional brush against vegetation.

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done occasionally in the past. Also the snowboard edge.

at the top of the skin I put my hardshell on right away (I have it lashed to side of pack so can grab it quickly) and then pull out puffy jacket to put on top of hardshell if it's cold or windy - that keeps me warm while up there - then puffy gets stuffed back in pack for ski down in hardshell

typically use Arcteryx Nuclei for puffy - light, stuffable, windproof - not the most durable shell material though