A few questions

Gents, different topic than your party,(I'd like to attend but, doubtful at this time, coming from Portland, etc. blah, blah), but, I'm seeking some advice. And, apologies for the verbosity; I just wrote off the top of my head.
Edit: originally posted in the wrong forum.

My son and his friends are going backcountry skiing this coming weekend near Cooke City. This will be my son's second trip with his buds into the backcountry(did one a couple of weeks ago, somewhere S. of Bozeman-perhaps where the two were swept and killed back in. . Nov?).
Apparently his friends have sleds, that is their access in, and, again, they are apparently experienced. They supplied my son with AT skis, etc. on previous trip. But, I don't, didn't really ask the DETAILS of his/their last trip. NOW, as they approach this Cooke City trip, the details,(me being a total novice backcountry skier, ie, nothing but spring/summer trips up Hood), the questions are flooding into my brain.
I should preface this by saying my son, and presumably his friends, are all very competent resort skiers. My son has never had any avy class, though, etc. Doesn't own any gear, etc. His friends do, as mentioned above, and in my son's words regarding their last trip, and answering my inquiries, "we dug a pit," and "yes, they(friends), know what they're doing. I presume that they somewhat know what they're doing, But. . .
I ask you, fellow TGRer's some of the following questions about the DETAILS that are flying into my concerned-parent's brain, and seek your opinions and insights. Any advice, etc. is much appreciated. Tell me if I'm just being paranoid, or, if these are legit questions to ask my son. . . Much obliged.

Questions I think I should ask(mostly based on what I've read):

1) How many in the group have actually had an avy class?
2) Does every member have a transceiver, and is practiced in using it?
3) In addition to transceiver, do they all have the proper equipment, ie, probe, shovel, etc?
4) Last trip they dug a pit. Just one, or multiple?
5) Relating back to #1, how did his friends learn, through classes, or. . .just from their friends? Books?
6) I guess I can also ask what the terrain's like that they'll be skiing, but, I also know avys can strike in many different types of terrain, etc.
I mean, around Cooke City, what is that, the Beartooth's?

Ok. That's all I can think of off of the top of my suddenly stressed out head.
Any others you gentle mags can come up with would be greatly appreciated, along with, are those all proper Questions to ask? Or, am I being too paranoid?

All I know is that the backcountry bug can bite one hard, as it has many, but, if not prepared and practicing the proper precautions and protocol, that bug can result in a different kind of bite that can have deadly consequences.

Final: looked at the Gallatin NF website, and, what my novice eye saw was a warning for wind slabs, etc. etc. Leveled off a bit today, but. . looks like more weather and snow coming in around Th. F-me, but I'm thinking about this shit and worrying! Too many unanswered questions in my mind, sitting here in Portland, and hopefully you gents can verify if my questions are legit, and perhaps provide more. My son tends to get defensive about it all when I ask, answering "yes, they have experience; we dug a pit, etc."
Yes, how could I ask such questions of my 22yr. old? How?

Much appreciated, gentleman, and sorry to derail this thread a bit. Perhaps should've posted in another one, but. . this one was easy!
Thanks very much.

Well digging a pit doesn't mean shit. I'll leave the rest to more seasoned pros to answer.

I can foresee myself experiencing similar anxiety as a parent.

Buy him his own avy kit so he's familiar with his own gear and sign him up for a class, something actually out in the mountains. Pay for it all and frame it as a "gift" and support his new "hobby"

Hell, go all out and get him an ABS pack.

Yep, I agree with your assessment.
His mom and I have been talking about this shit for. . . a few years now. But, he never showed the incentive to want to do it, and therefore has just been skiing the resorts, going to school, etc. Now, all of a sudden(it seems), his friends are "experienced," and, in my eyes, they're going big, ie, The Throne(area), and now going to Cooke City.
So. . . Yes, I will be talking to him tomorrow about this shit.
Yes, he seems to want to do it, so maybe it's now time. That still might not prevent him/them from continuing to go.

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Originally Posted by AK47bp

Well digging a pit doesn't mean shit. I'll leave the rest to more seasoned pros to answer.

I can foresee myself experiencing similar anxiety as a parent.

Buy him his own avy kit so he's familiar with his own gear and sign him up for a class, something actually out in the mountains. Pay for it all and frame it as a "gift" and support his new "hobby"

Hell, go all out and get him an ABS pack.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by AK47bp

Buy him his own avy kit so he's familiar with his own gear and sign him up for a class, something actually out in the mountains. Pay for it all and frame it as a "gift" and support his new "hobby"

Hell, go all out and get him an airbag pack.

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All of these, though an airbag pack won't help with blunt force trauma (rocks/trees). Just as important as learning about the snow, the class will help him become aware of group dynamics. It's easy for an enthusiastic group of young men to ignore warning signs that would scare them individually if they were alone in same terrain and conditions.

Yep, scare them if they were aware of the signs.
Yes, if I could press a button and slow him down, stop him from going any further until . . . spring/summer, and he takes a class, etc, I would. But, talking to him is the best I can do at this point.
Thanks.

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Originally Posted by 1000-oaks

All of these, though an airbag pack won't help with blunt force trauma (rocks/trees). Just as important as learning about the snow, the class will help him become aware of group dynamics. It's easy for an enthusiastic group of young men to ignore warning signs that would scare them individually if they were alone in same terrain and conditions.

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This is a difficult one for you as a Dad. You have little to no idea of the experience levels of the group, it is probably predominately young males and most people think they are savvy and make good decisions. Not to add to your wall of worry but Cooke City is the Big Leagues. They have gotten a lot of snow this winter and as always have seen some big avalanche cycles. To add even more stress, it was clear and cold here and there the past couple of days but is supposed to begin snowing tomorrow night. With the holiday this weekend it will be busy over there.

I have no advice for you at this late date except that if you have a chance to get across to your son one piece of advice, that would be: Look at the Gallatin avalanche center forecast and be conservative. https://www.mtavalanche.com/advisory/cooke-city

Best of luck.

As AK47 said, if you at all afford it buy him a kit - beacon, shovel, probe and have him practice with it at least a few times.

Emphasize the consequences of a mistake such as injury, death, and having to see his friends killed or have them have to tell you about his death.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Yes, a kit will be coming in the near future.
Advice on the consequences: Priceless.
Thanks very much.

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Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick

As AK47 said, if you at all afford it buy him a kit - beacon, shovel, probe and have him practice with it at least a few times.

Emphasize the consequences of a mistake such as injury, death, and having to see his friends killed or have them have to tell you about his death.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

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Tis difficult, for sure. Had a bit of a freak out last night, and a rough night sleeping. .
All the stuff you mentioned is info I've kinda gleaned in the last 24 hrs. . .
I did look at the Gallatin Avy website, which got me more freaked. Will be passing that on to him.

Much obliged to all the good responses. Beer coming your way should we meet in. . . Montana? My hood of Hood? If you're Around these parts, give me a pm and let's meet for a beer. I do hope to go visit him soon, and hit up Big Sky, where he used to work, and/or Whitefish, where he just went last weekend. If you's all around, love to hook up for a thank you beer and a ski!
Again, I appreciate the great responses.

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Originally Posted by Not bunion

This is a difficult one for you as a Dad. You have little to no idea of the experience levels of the group, it is probably predominately young males and most people think they are savvy and make good decisions. Not to add to your wall of worry but Cooke City is the Big Leagues. They have gotten a lot of snow this winter and as always have seen some big avalanche cycles. To add even more stress, it was clear and cold here and there the past couple of days but is supposed to begin snowing tomorrow night. With the holiday this weekend it will be busy over there.

I have no advice for you at this late date except that if you have a chance to get across to your son one piece of advice, that would be: Look at the Gallatin avalanche center forecast and be conservative. https://www.mtavalanche.com/advisory/cooke-city

Best of luck.

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Originally Posted by AK47bp

Well digging a pit doesn't mean shit.

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More often than not it's a red flag IMO.

And your son wouldn't be at all qualified to judge reason it was done, the method used, result obtained or decision making made because of or in-spite of it.

Most likely he would just be impressed that "a pit" was done.

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no advice for you at this late date except that if you have a chance to get across to your son one piece of advice, that would be: Look at the Gallatin avalanche center forecast and be conservative. https://www.mtavalanche.com/advisory/cooke-city

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This ^

Hmmm. Yes, some truth there, and good points!
Why a red flag?

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

More often than not it's a red flag IMO.

And your son wouldn't be at all qualified to judge reason it was done, the method used, result obtained or decision making made because of or in-spite of it.

Most likely he would just be impressed that "a pit" was done.

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Originally Posted by Skihiker

Why a red flag?

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"We should dig a pit"

should be answered by rest of party with "Why? What are we going to learn? What decisions are we going to make based on results? What don't we know already? And why don't we know it"

I think you're very right to be concerned, given you really don't know the capabilities of your son's friends or what should be a healthy dose of fear and respect for the mountains and conditions. With that, following is the current assessment for Cooke City:

"The mountains around Cooke City are getting a respite from snowfall and wind-loading. Large and deep natural avalanches were spotted when the storm cleared on Saturday, the same day a snowmobiler was buried near Sheep Creek. He had 1 finger sticking out of the snow and his face was uncovered in 30 seconds by his partners. Give the heavy and steady load that these mountains received, I’m wary of giving slopes a full thumbs-up. Wind-loaded slopes near ridgelines are the main concern, and of course, deep slab avalanches breaking at the ground are unlikely, but not far from my mind. For today, the danger is rated MODERATE on all slopes since avalanches are still possible."

https://www.mtavalanche.com/advisory

With that, if he were there today, I'd rest a bit easier but would quiz him about leeward slopes, skiing under cornices, wind slabbing, terrain features, etc. to get a sense of what he would look to avoid. Since he's going later this week, it's likely going to be a much different game and set of circumstances. There is new snow, albeit not a ton, in the forecast which could add to the wind-loading conditions and increase the chances of avalanche. Here's the forecast at 7800'.

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick...7#.WoMXAK6nGUk

I would keep an eye on the advisory page and stay in contact with your son to query him on updates to make sure he's at least paying attention. Also, do all you can to make sure he stands for himself and doesn't get caught up in the 'group-think' peer pressure that tends to capture 22 y.o. males. If he's uncomfortable with a slope or conditions, he should raise his hand and get the group talking about it, maybe find a lesser consequence slope or simply bail out the way they came in. The best days of skiing are those you finish on your feet.

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Originally Posted by Skihiker

Yes, a kit will be coming in the near future.
Advice on the consequences: Priceless.
Thanks very much.

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He should do Avy 1 this season. It's only three days. If taught properly, it will open his eyes and make him understand the difference between smart/competent and lucky.

Skihiker, sorry for redirecting you in the other thread, but the responses here will be less distracted, and your posts might be seen by a broader range of folks (many will disregard the regional threads except the 20 folks that care enough to check it).

You're right to bring up concerns and this stuff is important, but I'd suggest chilling a notch... don't get panicky or irrational. The basics of avalanche safety are all logic... very methodical but easily disrupted by emotion, and you don't want to make him lean away from proper instruction just to "be independent".

Bunion's suggestion to pay attention to the regional avy center information is the bang for the buck response. They have a good YouTube channel that is worth looking at as well, with lots to learn from their archived vids in addition to the newest ones linked in the current forecast.

I'd also suggest learning as much as you can yourself, so you can talk intelligently about the topic WITH your kid and not just sound like a hyperventilating parent. For example, talk through the weather and snowpack analysis in the incident reports, especially in the areas he intends to visit. Look at maps/GoogleEarth and help identify slope angles, terrain traps, etc.

Be a partner in enabling his recreation, instead of providing a leash to pull on ever harder.

Norseman,
No worries on the redirect. As mentioned, I was in a paranoid mode last night, and, just posted to a Montana thread hoping that local folks would give me some advice.
Yes, I hear you on not overreacting, pulling in the leash too tightly, etc. But, a bit easier said than done. . . I know someone who died skiing, and have had my own close call, so my fear for my kid who has no experience(except the one time recently with the same friends), is justified.
Having said, that, I do hear you, and have already reined in my initial emotions, (though the concerns remain), and will certainly hold them in check when talking to him on the phone. Yes, having an intelligent conversation about the conditions, providing him with the link, etc. is all valuable advice, and much appreciated.
Beer coming your way too, should we meet up. Might be providing beer for a few!
Thanks again, Norseman.

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Originally Posted by Norseman

Skihiker, sorry for redirecting you in the other thread, but the responses here will be less distracted, and your posts might be seen by a broader range of folks (many will disregard the regional threads except the 20 folks that care enough to check it).

You're right to bring up concerns and this stuff is important, but I'd suggest chilling a notch... don't get panicky or irrational. The basics of avalanche safety are all logic... very methodical but easily disrupted by emotion, and you don't want to make him lean away from proper instruction just to "be independent".

Bunion's suggestion to pay attention to the regional avy center information is the bang for the buck response. They have a good YouTube channel that is worth looking at as well, with lots to learn from their archived vids in addition to the newest ones linked in the current forecast.

I'd also suggest learning as much as you can yourself, so you can talk intelligently about the topic WITH your kid and not just sound like a hyperventilating parent. For example, talk through the weather and snowpack analysis in the incident reports, especially in the areas he intends to visit. Look at maps/GoogleEarth and help identify slope angles, terrain traps, etc.

Be a partner in enabling his recreation, instead of providing a leash to pull on ever harder.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Norseman

Bunion's suggestion to pay attention to the regional avy center information is the bang for the buck response. They have a good YouTube channel that is worth looking at as well, with lots to learn from their archived vids in addition to the newest ones linked in the current forecast.

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+1
Their youtube content is excellent. I'd also recommend listening to the Slide podcast series. The narrator/host Doug Krause posts here occasionally.
Also, here is a schedule for Avy1 courses.

Thanks very much! Will do, and will recommend to him as well.

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Originally Posted by hafjell

+1
Their youtube content is excellent. I'd also recommend listening to the Slide podcast series. The narrator/host Doug Krause posts here occasionally.
Also, here is a schedule for Avy1 courses.

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Circling back to your question of "what other questions should I ask," I would press for details of their plan. If all goes well, what do they plan to ski, and how does that correspond with the avalanche problem described by the local avalanche center? What snow/avalanche conditions do they expect to see on their intended route? What sorts of red flags would lead them to scratch Plan A for Plan B? How much lower-consequence is Plan B?

As others have mentioned an Avy 1 course should be on the agenda pronto. It may also be a good experience for you to take the course so that you have a better idea of what avalanche conditions are relatively scary vs. relatively safe. I was prompted to take the class after I was on a hut trip where a young guy in our group was the most experienced backcountry skier of our small group and he deemed a slope "safe" after we dug a pit and saw about 2.5' of hard slab on top of 6" of ball bearing facets. I knew enough to know we were in trouble if the slab fractured, but had no idea how likely that was or how nervous I should be about the slope. I didn't really trust young guy, and realized I wasn't willing to leave my safety in his hands.

Separately, I just wanted to quote this for truth:
"We should dig a pit"

should be answered by rest of party with "Why? What are we going to learn? What decisions are we going to make based on results? What don't we know already? And why don't we know it"

I had this exact conversation with a group a couple of weeks ago. One partner wanted to dig a pit on a slope, but the consensus of the rest of the group was basically "conditions are touchy, we planned to avoid that slope, and no findings in the pit are likely to change our minds, so digging a pit would be a waste of time."

That's tough as bunion said. Cooke City is a spooky place when avie conditions are high, and if extreme you can even be swept into one just snowmobiling up from town in certain places, the main road crosses some avie paths.

That said, if the crew knows enough to keep it easy when it's spooky, they should be fine. There's plenty of places to build jumps or do mini-golf, and that's what a lot of snomoskiers do there anyways. You should ask if anyone's been there before, because if they haven't it takes awhile to get your bearings on where to ski. I don't see anyone young or old just going there blind and thinking they can start with the rowdiest lines, they are intimidating sitting at the bottom. You can't really shuttle to the top of big lines. There's some super fun pillow lines you can that are in the trees and "medium" length, but if it's 3 feet deep everyone better have new sleds to break trail up that to do quick laps. My point is they might come back humbled and not ski much first time. Still worth going though, the town is picturesque and mountains are unique to the lower 48.

That said snowmobilers from the midwest come there to die every year, high marking crazy shit with little avie experience. It's probably the closest/best snowmobile zone to the midwest, so you get those types coming in hot. So just because some snowmobiler got caught recently may not mean shit.

I'd worry that the crew is fine being mellow on high avie days and don't have big goals based on what they've seen online, and not worry as much they are going out on high avie days. Because they will go out every day, there is nothing else to do there and they could roop miles of pow on their sleds on the flats if they wanted to. We all started young in the BC after all. Digging pits don't mean shit, but yes asking if they have gear and taken classes are good questions. Beyond that your questions won't tell you if they have a good head on their shoulders.

Also, there is no cell reception in Cooke City so don't expect updates from him.

Thanks buddy!
Just talked with him on the phone, and. . . got some good answers that are making me feel better.
He said the group of six is pretty experience(save him), as they go "almost every weekend), etc. They/most have had avy classes, as well as a couple are studying snow science(not quite the same as an avy class, but in the same realm). Said they have probes, all the gear, and that they taught him how to use/test his transceiver that they lent him.
Further along, sounds like they're staying at a cabin somewhere just outside of Cooke, and will be doing the "min-golf," thing- first time, now the second thanks to you, that I've heard that term. Sounds like they've also been to this area a few times, so, they should be familar with it. Said they'd be skiing mellow stuff, somewhere near a lake.

So, I do feel better about the group he's going with, and he said he'd update me as time for departure got closer. Also said that this group looks at the updated Avy site, Gallatin, on the day of departure.
Sounds like they play it safe, overall.
Thanks very much, everyone, for all the good advice!
Much appreciated.

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Originally Posted by muted

That's tough as bunion said. Cooke City is a spooky place when avie conditions are high, and if extreme you can even be swept into one just snowmobiling up from town in certain places, the main road crosses some avie paths.

That said, if the crew knows enough to keep it easy when it's spooky, they should be fine. There's plenty of places to build jumps or do mini-golf, and that's what a lot of snomoskiers do there anyways. You should ask if anyone's been there before, because if they haven't it takes awhile to get your bearings on where to ski. I don't see anyone young or old just going there blind and thinking they can start with the rowdiest lines, they are intimidating sitting at the bottom. You can't really shuttle to the top of big lines. There's some super fun pillow lines you can that are in the trees and "medium" length, but if it's 3 feet deep everyone better have new sleds to break trail up that to do quick laps. My point is they might come back humbled and not ski much first time. Still worth going though, the town is picturesque and mountains are unique to the lower 48.

That said snowmobilers from the midwest come there to die every year, high marking crazy shit with little avie experience. It's probably the closest/best snowmobile zone to the midwest, so you get those types coming in hot. So just because some snowmobiler got caught recently may not mean shit.

I'd worry that the crew is fine being mellow on high avie days and don't have big goals based on what they've seen online, and not worry as much they are going out on high avie days. Because they will go out every day, there is nothing else to do there and they could roop miles of pow on their sleds on the flats if they wanted to. We all started young in the BC after all. Digging pits don't mean shit, but yes asking if they have gear and taken classes are good questions. Beyond that your questions won't tell you if they have a good head on their shoulders.

Also, there is no cell reception in Cooke City so don't expect updates from him.

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More good stuff.
Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Cravenmorhead

Circling back to your question of "what other questions should I ask," I would press for details of their plan. If all goes well, what do they plan to ski, and how does that correspond with the avalanche problem described by the local avalanche center? What snow/avalanche conditions do they expect to see on their intended route? What sorts of red flags would lead them to scratch Plan A for Plan B? How much lower-consequence is Plan B?

As others have mentioned an Avy 1 course should be on the agenda pronto. It may also be a good experience for you to take the course so that you have a better idea of what avalanche conditions are relatively scary vs. relatively safe. I was prompted to take the class after I was on a hut trip where a young guy in our group was the most experienced backcountry skier of our small group and he deemed a slope "safe" after we dug a pit and saw about 2.5' of hard slab on top of 6" of ball bearing facets. I knew enough to know we were in trouble if the slab fractured, but had no idea how likely that was or how nervous I should be about the slope. I didn't really trust young guy, and realized I wasn't willing to leave my safety in his hands.

Separately, I just wanted to quote this for truth:
"We should dig a pit"

should be answered by rest of party with "Why? What are we going to learn? What decisions are we going to make based on results? What don't we know already? And why don't we know it"

I had this exact conversation with a group a couple of weeks ago. One partner wanted to dig a pit on a slope, but the consensus of the rest of the group was basically "conditions are touchy, we planned to avoid that slope, and no findings in the pit are likely to change our minds, so digging a pit would be a waste of time."

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Originally Posted by muted

...(lots of good info snipped)...
Also, there is no cell reception in Cooke City so don't expect updates from him.

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There are a few spots with almost-usable Wifi in town, so sending nighttime updates via text or email (sans images and videos, think 2001-style) is doable. I wouldn't plan on streaming anything or making a voice or video call, though.

Thanks, I'll pass that on.

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Originally Posted by anotherVTskibum

There are a few spots with almost-usable Wifi in town, so sending nighttime updates via text or email (sans images and videos, think 2001-style) is doable. I wouldn't plan on streaming anything or making a voice or video call, though.

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If his friends and him are driving out -- maybe suggest they listen to the Slide podcast on the way.

It can be a really sobering way to think about common mental traps and group dynamics on your way towards the bc.