Excerpts From the Senate Hearing on Iraq

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: June 23, 2005

Filed at 6:51 p.m. ET

Excerpts from Thursday's Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on the Iraq war:

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Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld: ''There have been a series of gross errors and mistakes. Those were on your watch. ... Isn't it time for you to resign?''

Rumsfeld: ''Senator, I've offered my resignation to the president twice, and he's decided that he would prefer that he not accept it, and that's his call.''

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Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C.: ''The public views this every day, Mr. Secretary, more and more like Vietnam. ...

''In the last year, Sir, the public support in my state has turned, and I worry about that, because that's the only way we'll ever leave before we should, is if the public loses faith in us.''

Rumsfeld: ''I am absolutely convinced that we'll have the willpower and the staying power and the courage to do what's right there. The alternative is to turn that region back to darkness, to people who behead people. And that is not a happy prospect.''

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Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.: ''General Abizaid, can you give us your assessment of the strength of the insurgency? Is it less strong, more strong, about the same strength as it was six months ago?''

Gen. John Abizaid, top U.S. commander in the Persian Gulf: ''In terms of comparison from six months ago, in terms of foreign fighters, I believe there are more foreign fighters coming into Iraq than there were six months ago.

''In terms of the overall strength of the insurgency, I'd say it's about the same as it was.''

Levin: ''So you wouldn't agree with the statement that it's in its last throes?''

Abizaid: ''I don't know that I would make any comment about that other than to say there's a lot of work to be done against the insurgency.''

Levin: ''Well, the vice president has said it's in its last throes, that's the statement the vice president -- it doesn't sound to me from your testimony or any other testimony here this morning that it is in its last throes.''

Abizaid: ''I'm sure you'll forgive me from criticizing the vice president.''

Levin: ''I just want an honest assessment from you as to whether you agree with a particular statement of his -- it's not personal. ...

Abizaid: ''I gave you my opinion of where we are.''

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Sen. Robert Byrd, D-W.Va.: ''Mr. Secretary, I've watched you with a considerable amount of amusement. ... I've been here a long time, longer than you have. ... I've seen a lot of secretaries of defense. ... I don't think I've ever heard a secretary of defense who likes to lecture the committee as much as you. ...

''You may not like our questions but we represent the people. ... We ask the questions that the people ask of us whether you like it or not. ... The problem is we didn't ask enough questions at the beginning of this war that we got into, Mr. Bush's war. ...

''I don't mean to be discourteous. I've just heard enough of your smart answers to these people here who are elected. ... So get off your high horse when you come up here.''

Rumsfeld didn't respond to those remarks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by natty dread

Sen. Robert Byrd, D-W.Va.: ''Mr. Secretary, I've watched you with a considerable amount of amusement. ... I've been here a long time, longer than you have. ... I've seen a lot of secretaries of defense. ... I don't think I've ever heard a secretary of defense who likes to lecture the committee as much as you. ...

''You may not like our questions but we represent the people. ... We ask the questions that the people ask of us whether you like it or not. ... The problem is we didn't ask enough questions at the beginning of this war that we got into, Mr. Bush's war. ...

''I don't mean to be discourteous. I've just heard enough of your smart answers to these people here who are elected. ... So get off your high horse when you come up here.''

Rumsfeld didn't respond to those remarks.

---

That right there makes me a Senator Byrd fan...

:biggrin:

[QUOTE=natty dread]Levin: ''Well, the vice president has said it's in its last throes, that's the statement the vice president -- it doesn't sound to me from your testimony or any other testimony here this morning that it is in its last throes.''

Abizaid: ''I'm sure you'll forgive me from criticizing the vice president.''
[QUOTE]


If you disagree with what the vice president tells us about the war you're running for him then you should resign rather than hide behind a smart answer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

If you disagree with what the vice president tells us about the war you're running for him then you should resign rather than hide behind a smart answer

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Why, so some lackey yes-man can replace him and really run things into the ground?

To me it sounds like Abizaid is just trying to avoid the political grandstanding on both sides. The man was honest in his assessment. Let's give him credit for that.

[QUOTE=PNWbrit][QUOTE=natty dread]Levin: ''Well, the vice president has said it's in its last throes, that's the statement the vice president -- it doesn't sound to me from your testimony or any other testimony here this morning that it is in its last throes.''

Abizaid: ''I'm sure you'll forgive me from criticizing the vice president.''

Quote:

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If you disagree with what the vice president tells us about the war you're running for him then you should resign rather than hide behind a smart answer

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Depends on whether the point is to get answers or simply call people out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ljm

That right there makes me a Senator Byrd fan...

:biggrin:

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It was good to hear him tell us this week that his membership in the KKK was a mistake as well

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CUBUCK

It was good to hear him tell us this week that his membership in the KKK was a mistake as well

---

good point. i should have prefaced my comment with "knowing absolutely nothing else about the guy..."

And Byrd was no ordinary Klansman.
He not only joined the Klan, but started his own chapter:

Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 19, 2005; Page A01

In the early 1940s, a politically ambitious butcher from West Virginia named Bob Byrd recruited 150 of his friends and associates to form a chapter of the Ku Klux Klan. After Byrd had collected the $10 joining fee and $3 charge for a robe and hood from every applicant, the "Grand Dragon" for the mid-Atlantic states came down to tiny Crab Orchard, W.Va., to officially organize the chapter.

As Byrd recalls now, the Klan official, Joel L. Baskin of Arlington, Va., was so impressed with the young Byrd's organizational skills that he urged him to go into politics. "The country needs young men like you in the leadership of the nation," Baskin said.
--------------------
It was during this period that Byrd - supposedly by then an EX-Klansman - was advising Grand Imperial Wizard Samuel Green on whom to appoint to important posts in the hierarchy of the hate group. In a letter to Green, Byrd urged, "the Klan is needed today as never before and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia" and "in every state in the Union."

A year later in 1948, Byrd opposed President Truman's initiative to integrate the Armed Forces - and he did so using the language of a very much active Klansman.

The powerful Senate Democrat vowed then that he would "never submit to fight beneath that banner (the American flag) with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

Thanks for posting this Natty. Very interesting.

Hey, how 'bout this:

Iraq breeds world jihadists


Ewen MacAskill, Duncan Campbell and Richard Norton-Taylor




24 June 2005 07:27



The war in Iraq is creating a new breed of Islamic jihadists who could go on to destabilise other countries, according to a CIA report.

The CIA believes Iraq to be potentially worse than Afghanistan, which produced thousands of jihadists in the 1980s and 1990s. Many of the recruits to Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda had fought in Afghanistan.

The sobering caution came as a senior British anti-terrorism source warned that those trained in terror techniques in Iraq could use their newly-acquired skills in Britain at the end of the war.

The CIA report, completed last month, remains classified. But a CIA source on Wednesday confirmed that its broad conclusions, disclosed by The New York Times on Tuesday, were accurate.

The concern expressed in the CIA report contrasts with the optimism of United States Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld two years ago when he welcomed the prospect of Iraq as a magnet for jihadists.

That was an interesting press conference.

Please stop trying to hold the Bush Administration accountable.
They don't have time for such foolishness.
They have an empire to build.

Hey, thet just keep on coming. "vee were just following orders!"

(I wonder if there is a special fascination with twins down in Cuba...)





June 24, 2005




Interrogators Cite Doctors' Aid at Guantánamo



By NEIL A. LEWIS







WASHINGTON, June 23 - Military doctors at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, have aided interrogators in conducting and refining coercive interrogations of detainees, including providing advice on how to increase stress levels and exploit fears, according to new, detailed accounts given by former interrogators.



The accounts, in interviews with The New York Times, come as mental health professionals are debating whether psychiatrists and psychologists at the prison camp have violated professional ethics codes. The Pentagon and mental health professionals have been examining the ethical issues involved.



The former interrogators said the military doctors' role was to advise them and their fellow interrogators on ways of increasing psychological duress on detainees, sometimes by exploiting their fears, in the hopes of making them more cooperative and willing to provide information. In one example, interrogators were told that a detainee's medical files showed he had a severe phobia of the dark and suggested ways in which that could be manipulated to induce him to cooperate.



In addition, the authors of an article published by The New England Journal of Medicine this week said their interviews with doctors who helped devise and supervise the interrogation regimen at Guantánamo showed that the program was explicitly designed to increase fear and distress among detainees as a means to obtaining intelligence.



The accounts shed light on how interrogations were conducted and raise new questions about the boundaries of medical ethics in the nation's fight against terrorism.



Bryan Whitman, a senior Pentagon spokesman, declined to address the specifics in the accounts. But he suggested that the doctors advising interrogators were not covered by ethics strictures because they were not treating patients but rather were acting as behavioral scientists.



He said that while some health care personnel are responsible for "humane treatment of detainees," some medical professionals "may have other roles," like serving as behavioral scientists assessing the character of interrogation subjects.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Core Shot

And Byrd was no ordinary Klansman.
He not only joined the Klan, but started his own chapter:

Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 19, 2005; Page A01

In the early 1940s, a politically ambitious butcher from West Virginia named Bob Byrd recruited 150 of his friends and associates to form a chapter of the Ku Klux Klan. After Byrd had collected the $10 joining fee and $3 charge for a robe and hood from every applicant, the "Grand Dragon" for the mid-Atlantic states came down to tiny Crab Orchard, W.Va., to officially organize the chapter.

As Byrd recalls now, the Klan official, Joel L. Baskin of Arlington, Va., was so impressed with the young Byrd's organizational skills that he urged him to go into politics. "The country needs young men like you in the leadership of the nation," Baskin said.
--------------------
It was during this period that Byrd - supposedly by then an EX-Klansman - was advising Grand Imperial Wizard Samuel Green on whom to appoint to important posts in the hierarchy of the hate group. In a letter to Green, Byrd urged, "the Klan is needed today as never before and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia" and "in every state in the Union."

A year later in 1948, Byrd opposed President Truman's initiative to integrate the Armed Forces - and he did so using the language of a very much active Klansman.

The powerful Senate Democrat vowed then that he would "never submit to fight beneath that banner (the American flag) with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

---

his opposition of racial integration didn't stop there. He was one of the lead filibusterers(sic) for every single piece of civil rights legislation to roll through congress in the latter half of this century.

so, no Donald Rumsfeld isn't losing sleep over an admonition from a subhuman like "Sheets" Byrd.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CUBUCK

It was good to hear him tell us this week that his membership in the KKK was a mistake as well

---

He's been saying it was a mistake for years.

Personnally I am more concerned about how my senators voted on the vehicle fuel consumption ammendment. Both voted against. I will have to write another letter when I get home now. :nonono2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grange

Personnally I am more concerned about how my senators voted on the vehicle fuel consumption ammendment. Both voted against.

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Got a link to this one?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 13

Got a link to this one?

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I got the info from Yahoo. Here's a link to the article regarding fuel efficiency:

Senate RollVote Energy

Here's a link to the article regarding capping greenhouse gas emmisions to 2000 levels within 5 years:

Senate RollVote Greenhouse Gases

This time only one of my senators voted against the proposal.

Quizzing Dick Cheney on General John Abizaid's refusal to confirm that the war in Iraq is in what Cheney characterized as "last throes," Wolf Blitzer noted that Abizaid "says the insurgency now is at a strength undiminished as it was six months ago. And he says there are actually more foreign fighters in Iraq now than there were six months ago. That doesn't sound like the last throes." Cheney went Clintonesque:

CHENEY: No, I would disagree. If you look at what the dictionary says about throes, it can still be a, you know, a violent period, the throes of a revolution.

Have to give the veep this one. Looked up "throes" in the dictionary and, indeed, no time period is specified. That's why the word he should look up in the dictionary is "LAST."

When everyone is on the Bush pill, these things will go completely unnoticed.

Check This Out:

The major pharmaceutical lobby wants universal mental screening
for every child in America, including preschool children.

But universal screening alone is not what the
pharmaceutical lobbyists want. The real payoff for
these select drug companies is the drugging of
children that will result - as we learned tragically
with Ritalin - even when parents refuse!

The drug companies want your children to be
"screened." The psychiatric establishment wants to do
the "screening." And even a recent presidential
commission (New Freedom Commission on Mental Health)
supports it all.

These powerful groups want your children "screened"
whether or not you, as parents, give permission.

Congressman Ron Paul, an OB/GYN physician for over 30
years, is desperately trying to keep the drug
companies, politicians and federal bureaucrats from
becoming "parents" to your children. Dr. Paul will
introduce this week an amendment to the Labor, HHS,
and Education Appropriations Act for FY 2006 that
will withhold funds from being used to implement or
support any federal, mental screening program.

In a letter to his congressional colleagues, Dr. Paul
states:

"As you know, psychotropic drugs are increasingly
prescribed for children who show nothing more
than children's typical rambunctious behavior.
Many children have suffered harmful effects from
these drugs. Yet some parents have even been
charged with child abuse for refusing to drug
their children. The federal government should not
promote national mental health screening programs
that will force the use of these psychotropic
drugs such as Ritalin."

If you think this action alert is about something
that "can't happen here," think again. In 1995, the
state of Texas launched the Texas Medication
Algorithm Project and then Governor George W. Bush
signed it into law. (WorldNetDaily.com, June 21,
2004)

The state of Illinois has also approved a mental
health screening program. The Illinois legislature
passed the Children's Mental Health Act of 2003 which
will provide screening for "all children ages 0-18"
and "ensure appropriate and culturally relevant
assessment of your children's social and emotional
development with the use of standardized tools." In
addition, all pregnant women in Illinois are to be
screened for depression.

Dr. Karen R. Effrem, a pediatrician and leading
opponent of universal screening with EdAction states:

"Universal mental health screening and the drugging
of children, as recommended by the New Freedom
Commission [presidential commission], needs to be
stopped so that many thousands if not millions of
children will be saved from receiving stigmatizing
diagnoses that would follow them for the rest of
their lives. America's school children should not
be medicated by expensive, ineffective, and
dangerous medications based on vague and dubious
diagnoses."

Dr. Effrem warns:

1. Parental rights are unclear or non-existent
under these screening programs.
2. Parents are already being coerced to put their
children on psychiatric medications and some
children are dying because of it.
3. Mental health screening does not prevent
suicide.
4. Mental health diagnoses are "subjective" and
"social constructions" as admitted by the
authors of the diagnostic manuals themselves.
5. Most psychiatric medications do not work in
children.
6. The side effects of these medications in
children are severe.
7. The untoward influence by the pharmaceutical
industry, or at least the impropriety, is
abundantly clear in two important aspects of
this issue.
8. Merging screening with the academic standards
required by No Child Left Behind, as is
happening in Illinois, will lead to diagnosis
for political reasons. School mental health and
violence prevention programs funded by NCLB and
government counterterrorism operations are
already using such criteria as "homophobia" and
"defenders of the US Constitution against
federal government and the UN" to label school
children and US citizens as mentally unstable
and violent. (source: EdAction.org)

Urge your U.S. representative to vote "yes" on the
Paul amendment to stop universal mental screening of
children.
http://action.downsizedc.org/wyc.php?cid=15

If your U.S. representative does not vote "yes" on
the Paul amendment, he or she supports screening your
children without your permission -- just as the drug
companies want.

The U.S. House will vote on the Paul amendment
Thursday or Friday.
http://action.downsizedc.org/wyc.php?cid=15

Also, please be sure to tell others to come to
DownsizeDC.org and send a message because time is
running short.

Splat - that's funny. The DoD would have a HUGE problem with that - if that goes through, it would dramatically reduce the pool of available people to ever serve in the military voluntarily in any way at any point - ADD/ADAD, when requiring drugging by Ritalin or the like, is a disqualifier for service, much like Asthma or bone/spine/knee issues.

As far as the comments with Abizaid, that is probably the best dissenting view that one could get from him. While he may disagree with what a windbag politician has to say about something controversial, it is illegal for him to express that in a public fashion as John Abizaid, Gen, USA. He may do it as John Abizaid, private citizen, however his position has elevated his fame and notoriety so it'd be near impossible for him to voice his opinions without anyone associating him with the office he holds. Also it's kind of difficult to voice your opinion as a private citizen when testifying before Congress, in uniform, with your boss (Gen. Myers) and your boss's boss (Sec. Rumsfeld) in the same room as you.

Also, bear in mind he was hand-picked for his position by Sec. Rumsfeld - regional Component Commanders (Abizaid is the Central Commander, known as CENTCOM) do not report to their services (like the Army), but report directly to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Secretary of Defense. So the likelihood of a personal pick like that doing something stupid like criticizing the President/Vice President before a Congressional panel and the media is extremely low, although it has happened before - Gen. Mike Dugan, an Air Force Chief of Staff (head officer of the Air Force) was fired by SecDef Cheney during the George HW Bush Administration, right before the first Gulf War. He was replaced by Gen Merrill (Tony) McPeak, who was one of the ex-Generals vouching for Sen. Kerry in his run for President.

As for the expectation for him to resign, keep in mind that once an officer makes their fourth star as a General, their career becomes either up or out - each future office they may occupy pretty much can only be higher in elevation that the one they had before. His predecessor, Gen. Fred Franks, retired at the end of his tour - pretty much the only position he'd have been eligible for would have been Chief of Staff of the Army, and Gen Franks either was not selected for the post, or didn't want it (CENTCOM was enough stress for him already). So if Gen. Abizaid were to resign his position, then his commission (ie his paycheck) would disappear right away - if he were lucky, perhaps the service would allow him to retire and keep a pension. But he could not fill any lesser positions, and would be out of employment. Now that may not seem like a lot, but when somebody's married, has kids, etc. depending on them, quitting a job over a disagreement with a politician, then the fight better be worth the losses. Quitting over somebody's words to the media don't exactly strike me as worthwhile response. There are bigger fights out there to worry about.

yea, all right, you all might think i'm psycho for this, but i am so its all good but i have been diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress disorder, yea the vietnam vet thing, signifigant portions of my childhood are blacked out, certain memories don't make sense to me, and i used to get paranoid, like in kindergarten i would get afraid and crawl into small spaces to hide from whatever i was afraid of (i didn't even know what it was, i just felt scared as shit). These were the flashbacks i had, not seeing something, but feeling afraid and small, because i had blocked out the memory of whatever had caused my problems, it probably happened when i was a baby, but as i grew older i was always paranoid, thinking kids in my school were all out to kick my ass and always hated me. I once reached out and broke a kids finger because i was sure him and his freinds were going to kick my ass. They were on thier way to hockey practice, and even after i did that, they just looked at me like, why the hell'd you do that?
My point is, i am fine now, and comepltly in love with life, i still have wierd memories, and haven't remembered what happened to cause this, but a few memories have surfaced, and its all good, cus every one i know thinks i'm well balenced and the only fear i feel now is on top of a gnarly drop. I did this with a bit of therapy, and NO PILLS WHATSOEVER. I had been sent to shrink after shrink for most of my life, my parents had no idea what was wrong with me, most of which were hacks that had no idea what they were doing, but the last one figured out the PTSD thing, and WITHOUT PILLS he was able to help me understand it and get over it. And for most of my life my parents wanted me on pills because it is an easy sollution, or at least seems that way to some parents and doctors. Thankfully they never forced the issue on me, so i stayed off em. My point is i don't think anyone needs pills, they are an illusion of a sollution, there is always a way around them, unless of course you're just so far gone you're friggin killing people and shit.

haha, that wierd you fuckers out? hopefully, but the real point is, george bush sucks

Perhaps the meek. Your tale is fairly mild in comparison to some of the Nam vets I've hung out with, but certainly not uncommon. But you brought yourself around without being the guinea pig for a bunch of mooks issuing pills for which they have no understanding of the working mechanisms or the long term side effects.

Just what we need - kids so fuckin doped up, starting at the kindergarten level, that they become problems for generations into the future - all so GWB can pocket his take on the pill makers profit. That is some sick shit.
Kudos to you for taking on your own situation and dealing with it instead of finding the solution in a bottle of whatever.

I really dislike that GWB is President. Let's take the highlights that Natty grabbed and look at them not as "hey those morons don't know shit and our good guys are sticking it to them" but as insights about this terrrible war and the political processes behind managing it.

The fact that General Aziazibad is allowed to testify before congress to the contrary of VP Cheney is a great thing, it shows that we can get straight talk from our guys in the feild and not just a smothering of political taglines. Not that we'll get it across the board, but this is a good sign.
That Sec. Rumsfeld has twice offered his resignation and been denied by the Pres is a clear indication that the Prresident will accept the blame. Now, we all know that Rummy's resignations were designed for him to take the bullet for George, but that George is willing to own it shows a bit of political courage that I don't think is characteristic of GWB. Maybe he believes this will allow him to take all the credit in the end or that he can talk his way out of it if it gets worse. If Senator's Kennedy and Byrd want to punish Rummy beyond scolding words, they should formalize it with censure or some true punishment, what they are doing now is for their own glory.
If the insurgency is being conducted less and less by the local Iraqis and more by foreign jihadists, then the US is making good progress in winning the peace. Eventually the Iraqis will say no to the foreigners and want to normalize their lives, meanwhile we will help them tighten their borders and build their own defense and police forces. That will work. We can argue the expediency, cost, morality, and priority of that plan until, but it is hard to say it won't work.

That's just another take on these comments. Free of charge and worth every penny.

yea, my main point wasn't to say hey, look how crazy i am, i know theres people who are worse off than i was, and i could have included more details, but my main point is that pills are not an effective sollution to anything, especially because scientists create chemical compounds they do not understand, and say hey, that hyper kids pretty chill now, (or wierd creepy kids seem normal, or whatever) this shit works, lets market it and give it to other kids. FDA screening is not enough, mind altering drugs should be used for strictly recreational use, unless the patient/subject is completly beyond normal help and needs something to keep them from constantly freaking out and going nuts