Beacon/Shovel/Probe Advice

Looking into buying Beacon/Shovel/Probe in near future. Starting to shop around.

Looking for advice. Don't need anything fancy, as I primarily resort ski, but have been getting into the BC thang, primarily as a holiday-crowd avoidance tactic/variety from resort skiing.

What's best unit for someone who makes the occasional BC/sidecountry move, and also doesn't have bottomle$$ pocket$?

Used gear a bad idea? Obviously a shovel is a shovel, a probe a probe etc. Does a beacon require any calibration at any point in it's life? Does it have a service-life?

Thanks

mammut element beacon and the shovel with the biggest blade that fits in your pack. smooth back side is useful for snow profiles. I like the g3.

probe depends on snowpack where you live. lengths vary between 240 and about 310. get something with depth markings.

the best bacon is found at your local butcher. don't bothr with the supermarket stuff.

Most important is the training to use it. Or better yet, not have to.
Also, http://avalanchetools.com/c/packages/
Get AT LEAST a 250cm probe.
I got something similar to this. Exact probe and shovel were a little different.

The general recommendation is to retire beacons after 5 years. Older beacons are also generally using older technology that doesn't work as well as the new stuff. Suggest getting a new 3-antenna beacon, something like the Mammut Element or Pulse, Tracker 3, DSP Sport or Pro, Ortovox 3+. Any of these packages would be fine: http://www.backcountry.com/avalanche-packages

For more on beacons: http://beaconreviews.com/transceivers/

Also take an avy class, and/or find someone experienced to learn from. The gear alone won't keep you safe.

Echoing using a 3 antenna beacon. In terms of reducing errors in searches this is a big factor. Most beacons in the last 4-5 years will have it.

Can't say how common in is to be buried below 240cm, but longer probes can be more cumbersome to use. Know your snowpack and what depth range of avalanches are in the area you plan to ride. Longer probes may also not fit in your standard designated pack slot, identify what will work with your other gear.

A shovel is not just a shovel. In a pinch when searching for a bud caught in an avy ease of deployment and effective shovel size and material wilI make a big difference in how fast you can dig.

More than anything, familiarizing yourself with the equipment you purchase and practicing with the people you are going to ride with is the most important factor, reducing the human error element in avalanche safety. If you don't know how to use your shit $1500 worth of gear don't mean shit.

Used gear is fine, inspect shovel probe for defects. Ask when the last time the beacon was serviced, in most cases you can send it in for a small fee (if any) to verify accuracy and condition of equipment.

If you haven't, take avalanche awareness classes or if possible get your AIARE1. I still havent taken avy1, but understanding cause/conditions/triggers with terrain is critical.

Another thing to consider, does your pack have dedicated avy gear storage. Organizing shit in a predictable place will make transitioning easier in an emergency situation when your brain isn't able to focus 100% on what it needs to do to address the situation.

Be safe and have fun. My 2cents

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Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

Most important is the training to use it. Or better yet, not have to.
Also, http://avalanchetools.com/c/packages/
Get AT LEAST a 250cm probe.
I got something similar to this. Exact probe and shovel were a little different.

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Tremendous Walter Mitty-ing by The Stuck One.

Dude doesn't skin, is too fat to walk uphill in summer let alone skinning in winter.

So, as usual, he's just pretending to know what he is talking about. He has no experience with the gear, or the activity.

#1 =education. AIARE 1 should be considered the minimum for a winter backcountry traveler, even an occasional one. Avalanches don't care that you exited the resort gate or that you only go twice per year.

Beacon: buy a 3-antenna beacon. All manufacturers make good beacons. Go to a good shop, try them all, buy the one that is most intuitive for YOU to use. All other features are secondary to this. Support the local shop that you used to scope out the beacons. Models to try: BCA Tracker 2 and Tracker 3, Mammut Element, Ortovox 3+, Pieps DSP Sport. I don't know Arva's line well enough to recommend a model.

Probe: minimum 240cm long. Carbon or aluminum are both fine. DO NOT BUY PROBE SKI POLES. Again, buy the one that you find easiest to assemble. Throw away the bag that it comes in.

Shovel: do not buy a shovel based on what fits in your pack. Metal blades only. Buy the shovel that you feel you can move the most snow the fastest with. For a big strong guy that might mean the biggest blade possible. For someone small then moving more smaller loads might be faster and more efficient so a smaller blade could be appropriate. D-handles are highly recommended. Long extendable shafts are highly recommended. Hoe mode is also great to have. Pick your shovel first, then buy a pack that it fits in.

Remember that all of the above are LIFE SAFETY equipment. Buy cheaper beer for a couple months, avy gear is not the place to pinch pennies.

Other recommended gear:
-first aid kit
-medical training
-pack with dedicated avy tools compartment
-radios
-navigation equipment
-inclinometer
-repair kit

On the education note, I highly recommend the book Snow Sense. And +1 to a shovel with a hoe mode and D handle. They are a little more awkward to pack but they move snow so much easier.

My wife and I now have K2 probes because how quick and easy they are to use. We had older G3 and Ortovox, and some other brand. I got the K2 as a gift, and liked it, so I gave it to my wife, sight unseen, and she could set it up in about a third of the time as the other probes. It has to do with the handle, and the pull-against-the-spring tightening system. All new probes may have a version of their design, but it was the first I saw, so I bought another for her. Fling it out, pull against the handle, done. BTW, I could care less about K2, I don't sell this stuff, etc. @ 28 seconds he shows how fast the deployment is:


And BTW, what does the fucking bag do? Anybody have a good use for it? I have 3-4 on a shelf now.

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Originally Posted by homebrewd

Can't say how common in is to be buried below 240cm

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It would be rare to survive a burial of 240cm... but that isn't the point. The point is actually to have a probe that can hit 180-200cm easily without bending over or going to the hilt on each plunge to get there (slow and non-ergo) or that can probe from an angle if a tree branch is in the way.

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but longer probes can be more cumbersome to use. Know your snowpack and what depth range of avalanches are in the area you plan to ride. Longer probes may also not fit in your standard designated pack slot, identify what will work with your other gear.

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If you can't fit a 240cm or 260 or 300 in your pack... you have a tiny crappy rando spandex geek pack and cannot mount a decent shovel either.

Even a 3.2m is not cumbersome. Now a 4m fixed steel probes are cumbersome to carry for a tour...

Can you name a region where avalanches and terrain traps are not capable of producing burial depths greater than 2m or 2.5m?

Around Tahoe most folks tend to carry a 280 - 300cm probe. So local snowpack tendencies should be a consideration. I've got a 300cm BD quick draw that's pretty light.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Summit

It would be rare to survive a burial of 240cm... but that isn't the point. The point is actually to have a probe that can hit 180-200cm easily without bending over or going to the hilt on each plunge to get there (slow and non-ergo) or that can probe from an angle if a tree branch is in the way.

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That's a great point. Familiarizing yourself with it and practicing is probably the bigger deal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Summit

If you can't fit a 240cm or 260 or 300 in your pack... you have a tiny crappy rando spandex geek pack and cannot mount a decent shovel either.

Even a 3.2m is not cumbersome. Now a 4m fixed steel probes are cumbersome to carry for a tour...

Can you name a region where avalanches and terrain traps are not capable of producing burial depths greater than 2m or 2.5m?

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I definitely can't, and I carry a 3.2m poker with me all times so perhaps that is invalid. I suppose the most cumbersome part of it is deployment. Any feelings towards BD, G3, etc. as having the best system? Does material weigh in (not necessarily literally) to this as well carbon/aluminum?

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Originally Posted by Summit

[...]If you can't fit a 240cm or 260 or 300 in your pack... you have a tiny crappy rando spandex geek pack and cannot mount a decent shovel either.[...]

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The ISMF skimo race shovel spec is a complete joke, such that even this passes muster:
http://skimo.co/camp-crest-shovel#tab-review
... or skip directly to here:
http://tinyurl.com/CAMPcrest
(That was when she was 3. She's now 7. But IIRC by age 5 she had already dismissed it as too small for her!)

However, the ISMF skimo race probe spec is pretty decent, with 240cm min and a deflexion test too.
Since our race packs or so small, we have a special model with a shorter folded length:
http://skimo.co/arva-carbon-240-compact-probe

(Also, for this season, three antennas are required, so out with the Pieps Freeride, and in with the new Micro: http://skimo.co/pieps-micro-beacon)

^tnx JS

@homebrewd

I've seen a lot of worn and broken probes, many of them my own, Al and Carbon...

Carbon just has a shorter life so expect it to wear out sooner especially if you are using your probe frequently (just probing the snow feeling the layers, using it in your pits, training with it). So I've most often seen the carbon start breaking as opposed to on aluminum probes the pull wire or locking mechanism wears out or breaks from wear and tear. It's a cost thing, just realize the cost is more than the sticker cost because of the shorter life. And you only save about an ounce usually.

I have both a carbon and an aluminum probe.

I like my BCA probes a lot.

I like probes that have easy to read depth markings because honestly I use them in my pits and don't carry a folding ruler. I like highly visible depth markings like BCA or the new Ortovox probe line that I saw last month because it makes it easy to decide where to start digging.

black diamond winter sale has beacons on sale for those that are interested in the dsp pro ($315) or sport ($240)
other avy tools on sale too
[i have no idea if they charge shipping]

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Originally Posted by adrenalated

#1 =education. AIARE 1 should be considered the minimum for a winter backcountry traveler, even an occasional one. Avalanches don't care that you exited the resort gate or that you only go twice per year.

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Agree but no reason it has to be an AIARE course. AAA, AAI, NSP all good... CAC in Canukistan

Honestly, if tight on cash, reading a couple of books and finding one of those beacon practice centers where they teach you technique is pretty much the same end result as an AIARE 1 course (and yes, I've taken one).

I wanted to bump this thread and see if things have changed much in the last two years. I have access to some pretty good deals so I'm not super concerned about cost at the moment. Fire away!

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Originally Posted by adrenalated

#1 =education. AIARE 1 should be considered the minimum for a winter backcountry traveler, even an occasional one. Avalanches don't care that you exited the resort gate or that you only go twice per year.

Beacon: buy a 3-antenna beacon. All manufacturers make good beacons. Go to a good shop, try them all, buy the one that is most intuitive for YOU to use. All other features are secondary to this. Support the local shop that you used to scope out the beacons. Models to try: BCA Tracker 2 and Tracker 3, Mammut Element, Ortovox 3+, Pieps DSP Sport. I don't know Arva's line well enough to recommend a model.

Probe: minimum 240cm long. Carbon or aluminum are both fine. DO NOT BUY PROBE SKI POLES. Again, buy the one that you find easiest to assemble. Throw away the bag that it comes in.

Shovel: do not buy a shovel based on what fits in your pack. Metal blades only. Buy the shovel that you feel you can move the most snow the fastest with. For a big strong guy that might mean the biggest blade possible. For someone small then moving more smaller loads might be faster and more efficient so a smaller blade could be appropriate. D-handles are highly recommended. Long extendable shafts are highly recommended. Hoe mode is also great to have. Pick your shovel first, then buy a pack that it fits in.

Remember that all of the above are LIFE SAFETY equipment. Buy cheaper beer for a couple months, avy gear is not the place to pinch pennies.

Other recommended gear:
-first aid kit
-medical training
-pack with dedicated avy tools compartment
-radios
-navigation equipment
-inclinometer
-repair kit

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++ to all this. I also recommend looking at how the probe assembles... most (?) nice probes will have some sort of angling to make the thing easier to snap together in an emergency. The 240cm carbon Arva probes don't, and I've had 2 fail during trial assembly (original + a warranty replacement) because of this, and I am not some huge burly strong dude ripping shit apart with my giant muscles either. I roll with a bomber heavy-ass 320cm BD guide and I test assembling it in a hurry a number of times throughout the season and whenever I measure snow depth, etc... basically, mess with all the shit in your kit often and make sure it works or still works.

And whether you're like me and sometimes roll with a tiny spandex skimo pack or whatever Summit called it, or you carry a giant 45L thing stuffed to the gills with a weeks worth of rations, make sure you can actually get your (full sized metal etc) shovel and probe in and out of it without too much hassle... if it's too annoying to unpack your pack to get your probe out to quickly check the snowpack depth that's probably a bad sign.

e: I like still like my DSP Sport

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adrenalated

#1 =education. AIARE 1 should be considered the minimum for a winter backcountry traveler, even an occasional one. Avalanches don't care that you exited the resort gate or that you only go twice per year.

Beacon: buy a 3-antenna beacon. All manufacturers make good beacons. Go to a good shop, try them all, buy the one that is most intuitive for YOU to use. All other features are secondary to this. Support the local shop that you used to scope out the beacons. Models to try: BCA Tracker 2 and Tracker 3, Mammut Element, Ortovox 3+, Pieps DSP Sport. I don't know Arva's line well enough to recommend a model.

Probe: minimum 240cm long. Carbon or aluminum are both fine. DO NOT BUY PROBE SKI POLES. Again, buy the one that you find easiest to assemble. Throw away the bag that it comes in.

Shovel: do not buy a shovel based on what fits in your pack. Metal blades only. Buy the shovel that you feel you can move the most snow the fastest with. For a big strong guy that might mean the biggest blade possible. For someone small then moving more smaller loads might be faster and more efficient so a smaller blade could be appropriate. D-handles are highly recommended. Long extendable shafts are highly recommended. Hoe mode is also great to have. Pick your shovel first, then buy a pack that it fits in.

Remember that all of the above are LIFE SAFETY equipment. Buy cheaper beer for a couple months, avy gear is not the place to pinch pennies.

Other recommended gear:
-first aid kit
-medical training
-pack with dedicated avy tools compartment
-radios
-navigation equipment
-inclinometer
-repair kit

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Agree with mall walker, this is all on point. Two big takeaways: take an AIARE 1 class (minimum) and don't get cheap with (life saving) gear. Also for the probe depends on where you live. Here in the PNWet they recommend 270cm+ length

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adrenalated

#1 =education. AIARE 1 should be considered the minimum for a winter backcountry traveler, even an occasional one. Avalanches don't care that you exited the resort gate or that you only go twice per year.

Beacon: buy a 3-antenna beacon. All manufacturers make good beacons. Go to a good shop, try them all, buy the one that is most intuitive for YOU to use. All other features are secondary to this. Support the local shop that you used to scope out the beacons. Models to try: BCA Tracker 2 and Tracker 3, Mammut Element, Ortovox 3+, Pieps DSP Sport. I don't know Arva's line well enough to recommend a model.

Probe: minimum 240cm long. Carbon or aluminum are both fine. DO NOT BUY PROBE SKI POLES. Again, buy the one that you find easiest to assemble. Throw away the bag that it comes in.

Shovel: do not buy a shovel based on what fits in your pack. Metal blades only. Buy the shovel that you feel you can move the most snow the fastest with. For a big strong guy that might mean the biggest blade possible. For someone small then moving more smaller loads might be faster and more efficient so a smaller blade could be appropriate. D-handles are highly recommended. Long extendable shafts are highly recommended. Hoe mode is also great to have. Pick your shovel first, then buy a pack that it fits in.

Remember that all of the above are LIFE SAFETY equipment. Buy cheaper beer for a couple months, avy gear is not the place to pinch pennies.

Other recommended gear:
-first aid kit
-medical training
-pack with dedicated avy tools compartment
-radios
-navigation equipment
-inclinometer
-repair kit

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I'll make two edits to the above.

AIARE vs non-AIARE: lots of debate here and AIARE has made some enemies. Mostly this is an academic debate among avalanche professionals. I'll say it's most important to take a class with an organization with a good reputation. Not every AIARE instructor is a good one and not every non-AIARE class is a good one either, but many are.

Beacons: I stand by my general conceptual discussion however I'll add a few things.
BCA Tracker 2 and 3 generally lag behind others in range and multiple burial functionality. Their displays and audio are also more simplistic than others (good or bad depending on your preference)
Mammut's new Barryvox and Barryvox S are excellent.
Ortovox 3+ has some good features but lacks in range.
Pieps/Black Diamond are consistently good
Still no experience with Arva.

Probes and shovels haven't changed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adrenalated

AIARE vs non-AIARE: lots of debate here and AIARE has made some enemies. Mostly this is an academic debate among avalanche professionals. I'll say it's most important to take a class with an organization with a good reputation. Not every AIARE instructor is a good one and not every non-AIARE class is a good one either, but many are.

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Concur on the beacons.

There is a big beef on the behalf of the consumer and it has to do with aggressive branding.

AIARE is muddying the waters and they do it intentionally. They do it to boost their brand and imply that their brand is the only one, just like we refer to tissue paper colloquially as "Kleenex," a private brand. "AIARE 1" is literally what they tell their instructors to refer to the Rec Avalanche Level 1 class at all times and thus pass the branding to their customers and into the public sphere. I've been through AIARE instructor training.

We need a public effort to refer to avalanche courses by their names, not the curriculum provider. Companies like AAI, NSP, and AIARE are companies that make proprietary curriculum meeting the A3 (American Avalanche Association, the avalanche industry professional organization) course guidelines. Dropping the course name and replacing it with the company is a commercial branding strategy that creates confusion.

Let's make an effort to call it Level 1 (or Avalanche 1) but not "BRAND NAME 1."

Attachment 305581

#AvalancheEducationNeutrality

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Originally Posted by Summit

Concur on the beacons.

There is a big beef on the behalf of the consumer and it has to do with aggressive branding.

AIARE is muddying the waters and they do it intentionally. They do it to boost their brand and imply that their brand is the only one, just like we refer to tissue paper colloquially as "Kleenex." "AIARE 1" is literally what they tell their instructors to refer to the Rec Avalanche Level 1 class at all times and thus pass the branding to their customers and into the public sphere. I've been through AIARE instructor training.

We need a public effort to refer to avalanche courses by their names, not the curriculum provider. Companies like AAI, NSP, and AIARE are companies that make proprietary curriculum meeting the A3 (American Avalanche Association, the avalanche industry professional organization) course guidelines. Dropping the course name and replacing it with the company is a commercial branding strategy that creates confusion.

Let's make an effort to call it Avalanche 1 (or Rec 1) but not "BRAND NAME 1."

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AIARE is a non-profit that develops a curriculum (that yes is based on A3 guidelines), they are not a course provider, which differentiates them from AAI and NSP. Beyond that I'm not going to get into this debate.

As I said before, take an Avalanche 1 or Level 1 or whatever you want to call it class with a reputable provider. That's the bottom line for the consumer.