Training Your Intuition

I have always been a firm believer in intuition as an aid to keeping alive in the "Slide Zone". This thread on the main page got the discussion started. http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...and-Ski-Guides

In the paper posted by homemadesalsa:
You can read the ISSW 2014 paper here: http://arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-science/item/2074

there are sections that could use discussion:
" Intuition and analysis form two sides of the decision process and both should be used. Analytical capacity has come under pressure, while intuition is under-valued and under-trained."

" There is a great opportunity for ski guides to learn how to develop their intuitive responses into a much more potent tool. The optimal conditions, under which intuition will be more accurate, include an environment that provides relatively consistent indicators as to its true nature."

Among my usual ski partners there is a lot of discussion along the lines of "what do you think?", "how did that feel?" "Holy shit did you see that!". These discussions are used to keep us safe, and find the best lines. I would propose that they also provide, "relatively consistent indicators as to its true nature." When we make a poor choice, it is extensively discussed/debriefed to avoid repeating the mistake.

What do you do to TRAIN or DEVELOP your intuition? Den

Normally, I would stick my Intuitions in the oven at 200 or so.

Time spent in the mountains. LOTS of it. In and around avy terrain. Poking, prodding, and pushing buttons where i can to get a reaction or not. In all weather and danger ratings.

Ski cuts have been a huge learner over the years. Intuition is a byproduct of time spent in the mountains. Gotta pay real close attention tho. Something that can be increasingly less effective when with others or as the group gets larger.

As many will tell you, getting out into the mountains. Otherwise try this little web page put out by the NZ avy centre: http://www.avalanche.net.nz/educatio...-Exercises.asp

badump bump?

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Originally Posted by thewon

Time spent in the mountains. LOTS of it. In and around avy terrain. Poking, prodding, and pushing buttons where i can to get a reaction or not. In all weather and danger ratings.

... Intuition is a byproduct of time spent in the mountains.

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this is very key and has absolutely zero to do with getting your avy 1, 2 or 3

i guess it should also be stated that it is region & location specific

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Originally Posted by acinpdx

i guess it should also be stated that it is region & location specific

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Care to elaborate?^^^^^^

another thing that comes with time spent in the mountains is how to more mindfully move about in the mountains, whether it's ascending or (especially) descending when in tricky terrain. You don't learn this stuff in class. There are certain situations that call for much lighter footed skiing while traversing or making turns. For example, sometimes you may be somewhere where there is much bridging in the upper snowpack. The slab may be thick enough and supportive enough for one skier, but maybe not supportive enough for a heavy footed skier. Bridged snowpacks require light footed and very low edge angled skiing to get across the slope, or move downhill to more solid footing. In this day and age of the go-pro, fat skis, helmets and other "advancements" in the sport, along with aggressive ski movies, skiing has become a faster sport, a harder charging sport, a tick list sport, and just more, go, go, go!

each year our snowpacks are being tested harder and more frequently and sooner after each new storm. the bc isn't the resort, and should be treated more delicately. Carefully.

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Originally Posted by thewon

Care to elaborate?^^^^^^

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intuition is very much about anticipation of how the snow will react and to what extent it will react, which as you stated is largely a product of time spent in and around avalanche terrain and I totally agree. But what constitutes avalanche terrain including the relative slope angle, underlying topology (anchors) as well as the inconsistencies in the snow pack can vary a great deal geographically- east, west, central. What I intuitively expect while skiing in the PNW in terms of where I expect the snow to break and where my "safe" escapes are doesn't necessarily translate to Utah or Vermont, until I've spent enough time in those zones and conditions to re-calibrate my intuition to the new region.

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Originally Posted by Mofro261

intuition is very much about anticipation of how the snow will react and to what extent it will react, which as you stated is largely a product of time spent in and around avalanche terrain and I totally agree. But what constitutes avalanche terrain including the relative slope angle, underlying topology (anchors) as well as the inconsistencies in the snow pack can vary a great deal geographically- east, west, central. What I intuitively expect while skiing in the PNW in terms of where I expect the snow to break and where my "safe" escapes are doesn't necessarily translate to Utah or Vermont, until I've spent enough time in those zones and conditions to re-calibrate my intuition to the new region.

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thank you for the thoughtful reply.

having spent time in maritime (a lot), continental (some) , and intermountain (quite a bit) regions, i totally agree with what you say.

one thing that ties them all together, and can simplify things no matter what region you're in, especially when in un or less familiar terrain/region are the 4 basic ingredients for avalanches.

1) new snow/slab
2) a sliding surface
3) steep enough (over about 30 degrees) to slide
4) a trigger (you)

take any one of those^^^^^away and you're not in avalanche terrain. all four there? you probably shouldn't be there.

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Originally Posted by thewon

Care to elaborate?^^^^^^

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"Intuition" isn't some mystical ability. As you stated, it only comes with time & experience. (Maybe wisdom is a better word.) And time in avy country is very much related to locale. My experience with a coastal snowpack is way different than a continental experience from the Rockies or even the east coast. Now, those that get to travel more than regionally will obviously have a wider breadth of experience, but maybe at the expense of depth of knowledge (assuming time of experience being equal)

[edit] mofro's got it --- didn't read far enough ahead before posting

Understanding initiation of sloughing vs sliding can be critical -- something I'm nervous about because I don't yet have the experience to be fully confident about when in prime angle skiing. This is a direct result of not skiing dry snow as often as I'd like here in the pnw

I like where Iain Stewart-Patterson starts with how to train intuition: targeted
instructional settings can be constructed that focus on the development of the recognition component of the decision process.

So, training intuition CAN come from level 1, 2, 3 courses, but those courses need to have a clear debrief component to them, not to mention instructors who are tuned into talking about patterns that, over time, can be recognized as more and more refined. Iain S-P is clear about distinguishing between false and true patterns, which are hard to distinguish in the "wicked" learning environment.

Personally I think that this intuition is certainly built from the 10,000 hours that Bob refers to, but as someone else brought up, those hours need to have the reflection component included. In my avy courses I like to ask, at the end of a day or a run: "did you make the right call or did you get away with it?" Hard to say in the wicked environment, but clear Situational Awareness (SA) and guided discovery can shine a clear light. Check previous issues of The Avalanche Review for articles by Doug Krause on Situational Awareness and how to promote it, and here's a teaser for a new one in the SA series in the Dec TAR.

This is where the crucial role of mentorship comes in, imho. Someone to tell you: "you got away with that one," and to own their own mistakes as well. We are getting ready to revitalize the mentorship program at the AAA to help folks who want to enter the professional avalanche world, but in the advanced recreationist world, choosing a good mentor is critical. Plus, if you have survived your initial 10,000 hours, I challenge you to now act as a mentor to others. You'll gain more than you think...

I am pretty sure that we all agree that time in the mountains helps build and develop the intuitive process. Iain expresses it this way in his paper. "A high quality intuitive process is dependent on an extensive repertoire of previous patterns generated by decision outcomes."

The problem he talks about is we don't develop our intuition as well when things go well:
"Typically, the quality of the decision process is described as being contingent on the evolved expertise of the decision maker. The central problem is that decision feedback often lacks clarity when nothing goes wrong.However, days when everything has appeared to go well are rarely analysed. The implicit feedback from a day when nothing bad happened is that good decisions were made. This then becomes the basis for future pattern recognition. This is particularly significant when the consequences are high and the quality and quantity of feedback is low. Termed a wicked learning environment, it can help to form questionable patterns that may produce heuristic biases in the future."

" Intuition does not need to be very precise when consequences are lenient. A general direction can be sufficient. However, when consequences are exacting, there are significant consequences for minor errors.This produces an environment that can be described at its extremes as either ‘kind’ or ‘wicked’ (Hogarth et al., 1991). A ‘kind’ environment has relevant feedback and lenient consequences, compared to a ‘wicked’ environment, which has irrelevant feedback and exacting consequences. Intuition does not need to be very precise when
consequences are lenient. A general direction can be sufficient. However, when consequences are exacting, there are significant consequences for minor errors. This produces an environment that can be described at its extremes as either ‘kind’ or ‘wicked’ (Hogarth et al., 1991). A ‘kind’ environment has relevant feedback and lenient consequences, compared to a ‘wicked’ environment, which has irrelevant feedback and exacting consequences."

Now we all want to develop our "Expertise", not only to avoid injury and death, but to also ski better lines. According to this paper, feedback is key to gaining expertise.
"A number of conditions have been cited as being characteristic of events that foster the development of expertise and the subsequent impact on intuition. These included: a desire and motivation to improve, a well designed task that accommodated the learner’s starting point, and timely access to high quality feedback. Of
these characteristics, feedback whether generated externally or internally through a reflective process, was generally considered the most important" .

What are you doing to generate quality feedback in the "wicked" environment? Den

P.S. It is a good read: http://arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-scie...per_O13.05.pdf

What are you doing to generate quality feedback in the "wicked" environment?

Like I said above, using mentors to give insight to the "wicked" environment, as in, "you got away with it this time, but patterns I have seen and am trying to teach you about say that you cut it too close."

Reading as many case studies as I can find.

Trying to get the Snowy Torrents updated from 1986 to the present.

Keeping close track of the weather and how that translates to the snowpack. Looking at avalanche events/ cycles or non-events in light of those wx patterns, "why did this go big, why did this NOT go big when I expected it to?"

What are YOU doing to generate quality feedback in the "wicked" environment?

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Originally Posted by homemadesalsa

training intuition CAN come from level 1, 2, 3 courses

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i agree with your thoughts on emphasizing appropriate feedback and instructional awareness of the development of avy conditions awareness

unfortunately, snow conditions are what they are during any given class and any discussion of conditions not experienced is only discusssion

unless classes become more like piloting (hours flown as a requisite; or meeting a list of prerequisite conditions experienced [night landing, to continue the metaphor]), i think experience with friends/mentors is as important, and maybe more important, than the classroom stuff
the classroom is the jumping off point only

You can learn a lot by getting out in High or Extreme conditions and playing around - on really low consequence terrain. Dig, stomp and play on short slopes that won't bury or beat the shit out of you if they slide - there's a lot of good feedback when the snow is so reactive.

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Originally Posted by homemadesalsa

What are you doing to generate quality feedback in the "wicked" environment?

Like I said above, using mentors to give insight to the "wicked" environment, as in, "you got away with it this time, but patterns I have seen and am trying to teach you about say that you cut it too close."

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mentoring is so huge. One of my winters out west i was extremely fortunate to meet a well known avy professional very early in the season out in the bc. We hit it off right away and he took me under his wing for the whole season. We'd meet at different trail heads 5 days a week and go look at snow, avalanches, crown lines, and of course skied beautiful untracked pow! He was VERY good about constantly discussing our terrain choices and approaches. Don't think we ever really dug a pit as we were out daily and were well aware of how things were stacking up and changing throughout the season. Hand pits and pole poking was a constant along our routes. Twas like taking a 1000 hour avy class out in the field.

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Keeping close track of the weather and how that translates to the snowpack. Looking at avalanche events/ cycles or non-events in light of those wx patterns, "why did this go big, why did this NOT go big when I expected it to?"

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HUGE.

Something as simple as picking a partner that is more conservative or more aggressive than oneself can generate a lot of feedback on the decision-making process. Humans are not very good at constructing logical arguments, but they are very good at picking apart the inconsistencies, biases, etc. in arguments they disagree with. If you always agree with your partner, you are not contributing much to each-others learning curve.

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Originally Posted by homemadesalsa

What are YOU doing to generate quality feedback in the "wicked" environment?

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I love storm skiing, and I live in an active marine environment. The usual routine is to ski the trees until the storm lets up, and then start opening the alpine slopes. During the storm phase I do pretty much as telebobski described. Constantly poke the dragon in low consequence areas, rollovers, short steep pitches, and short pitches that have a history of wind loading and releasing. I usually have an idea about how each pitch and terrain feature should react under the changing conditions. When things react as expected I gain confidence, when things don't go as expected I restart the learning process and stick to low consequence runs. Once the storm lets up, opening the alpine slopes has a much higher risk. We usually start with low consequence slopes and terrain features , then up the game as our confidence grows. I always have an expectation of how the snow and slope are going to react. If it reacts as expected I would rate that as "quality" feedback. When conditions are difficult to call we are constantly discussing routes (both up and down), putting in hand pits on different exposures, and observing the mountains reaction to the snow load. Things are not behaving as expected, but it still generates quality feedback. On the ride to and from the slopes, there is discussion of conditions and expectations. On the way there it usually involves the latest weather and avy forecast and where to go. On the way back its usually a discussion of how the snow is settling/firming, and what we can open tomorrow. If things were unusually unstable, or a mistake was made there tends to be a lot more discussion and a conditions report made to the avy center.

We really do try for quality feedback, but many times you think you are doing a good job, and then someone comes along and shows you a better way. Keep the ideas coming, if I can improve my intuitive skills, it is another arrow in the quiver. Den

Yes, I am really enjoying this conversation. Maybe we can take it to an article for TAR, "how to train your intuition." Would anyone object? I'd have to use your real name, but it would only hurt for a minute, haha.

OH and if you want to read something cool along these lines, check out Charlie Ziskin's cover article for TAR a few years ago, entitled "Skiing in Considerable." Can be found here, volume 30, issue 4: http://www.americanavalancheassociat...b_archives.php

Great discussion with many interesting points!

I'd like to add that training one's intuition is much more difficult if one is constantly touring in an ad hoc fashion and not rigourous about things like trip planning and other established best practices. These best practices were established by decades of guiding tradition and snow science research. It seems like such a shame to invest so much money in gear and education only to throw it all away by trying to pick and choose the rules.

Best practices aren't a matter of "pick and choose the ones you like" and it's hard to develop intuition if you're always flying by the seat of your pants.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonster

Best practices aren't a matter of "pick and choose the ones you like" and it's hard to develop intuition if you're always flying by the seat of your pants.

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That is why I really like the move towards recreational field note books which are designed to drive the collection of relevant observations, and then use those observations to make decisions according to a structured and consistent method. Then at the end of the day, the field book acts as input to a post trip review of decisions.

Also, this quote from the paper makes so much sense. So relevant. So spot on, particularly the underlined and bold words:

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"A number of conditions have been cited as being characteristic of events that foster the development of expertise and the subsequent impact on intuition. These included: a desire and motivation to improve, a well designed task that accommodated the learner’s starting point, and timely access to high quality feedback. Of these characteristics, feedback whether generated externally or internally through a reflective process, was generally considered the most important" .

http://arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-scie...per_O13.05.pdf

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Originally Posted by homemadesalsa

Yes, I am really enjoying this conversation. Maybe we can take it to an article for TAR, "how to train your intuition." Would anyone object? I'd have to use your real name, but it would only hurt for a minute, haha.

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You must be really desperate for content...:fmicon:
Seriously, good idea. Maybe expand it to survey the TAR community...

"It takes REAL skill and discipline to get the basics right again and again and again.
( You know why? Because the basics are repetitive and dull and pretty fucking boring! )"

I took that quote from CookieMonsters site. http://avalanchesafety.blogspot.com/

For me, the "wicked" environment does provide good feedback. This is the time when I am most alive, and most cautious. I do realize that a mistake is not allowed. But the "wicked" I am talking about here is what I perceive as wicked. Occasionally when the skiing is good and nothing has been going wrong I forget that the wicked environment is still there, I am not seeing it due to my complacency. A good example was banging out good south facing lines on a early spring day, only to find that the line we skied an hour earlier has now slid, and even taken out the up track. Just a degree or two of temp, a degree or two of sun angle, and another year to forget about spring slides.

Iain's quote: "Intuition does not need to be very precise when consequences are lenient."
CookieMonsters quote: "It takes REAL skill and discipline to get the basics right again and again and again."

Perceived lenient consequences can kill when we forget the basics. This was a failure of intuition, and basics, among a very experienced group. The incident was extensively rehashed, is rehashed every year when the sun becomes more powerful, and has been passed on to many people. Going from a "kind", to a "wicked" environment provided good feedback. What do you do to train your intuition in a "kind" environment?

"The central problem is that decision feedback often lacks clarity when nothing goes wrong.However, days when everything has appeared to go well are rarely analysed."

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Originally Posted by dewam

A good example was banging out good south facing lines on a early spring day, only to find that the line we skied an hour earlier has now slid, and even taken out the up track.

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That would be good timing.

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Originally Posted by thewon

mentoring is so huge. One of my winters out west i was extremely fortunate to meet a well known avy professional very early in the season out in the bc. We hit it off right away and he took me under his wing for the whole season. We'd meet at different trail heads 5 days a week and go look at snow, avalanches, crown lines, and of course skied beautiful untracked pow! He was VERY good about constantly discussing our terrain choices and approaches. Don't think we ever really dug a pit as we were out daily and were well aware of how things were stacking up and changing throughout the season. Hand pits and pole poking was a constant along our routes. Twas like taking a 1000 hour avy class out in the field.



HUGE.

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1000 hours jaja???? Jajaja