Best arguments for a resort to have an avalanche dog and explosive program

I work at a resort that has a limited avi issue: coastal snowpack so mostly instability only in the storm snow but the storm snow could be over a meter of hard windslab in the right places.
Currently we have to try to control this by ski cutting, which doesn't work well or safely for hard slab (causes injury to staff.)
We don't have a dog which would have saved a lot of manpower probing inbounds debris this season.
We had an incredibly lucky guy recovered by probing and dug out alive after about an hour buried in an inbounds permanent closed area
We also had a couple of skier accidental class 2s with no burial

We're trying to get permission to have an avi dog and explosives for avi control.
I've got a personal interest cos I was ski cutting to control a cornice when it stepped down and back another meter and a got caught up in SUV sized blocks but luckily not buried.

Has anyone got any good links that I could give to the resort that say ski cutting isn't appropriate for hard slab and any more good arguements for the dog?

For the dog at the moment I've said good publicity, free cos handler pays all the bills, good publicity so more ticket sales, saves manpower, raises public awareness about backcountry avalanche etc

Avalanche Safety Protocalls ( routes, explosives, AAIRE certification, Avalanche Awareness ) all protect your ski area from lawsuits. Not having the latest avalanche protocol opens the ownership group into a world of hurt if the unfortunate happens in bounds.
second argument - it just makes sense.

Ski patrol and - resort ops on this board may have more to add.

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Originally Posted by F#*k You Cat

Avalanche Safety Protocalls ( routes, explosives, AAIRE certification, Avalanche Awareness ) all protect your ski area from lawsuits. Not having the latest avalanche protocol opens the ownership group into a world of hurt if the unfortunate happens in bounds.
second argument - it just makes sense.

Ski patrol and - resort ops on this board may have more to add.

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I think that was well put.

To the OP. PM me and I can give you a few people to contact.

I am assuming this ski area isn't in Canada.

Relying on ski cutting to mitigate 4F&> slabs is a fools errand and will certainly get someone killed sooner or later.

The explosives license is just a lot of hoops to jump through. The Liability insurance required before an explosives distributor will sell to you is spendy but manageable. The Magazines required for storage will run 3-4 thousand or you can rent but again not cheap. And explosives prices keep climbing every year. Still cheaper than an OSHA investigation as to why the company didn't follow industry accepted practices for Avalanche Hazard Reduction.

The Avi dog program is a nice idea but not as pressing. Lot of work involved in training a dog for avi unless you have someone with prior experience.

OP: Do you have any idea what kind of resistance you're getting and/or why? Seems that if one guy was buried and you took a big ride and you're having to probe sometimes that the ski area management would be aware that something isn't working with the current protocols.

It is hard to believe that there is a ski area out there, without some sort of "control" program because management doesn't want one.

^Agreed. Redskea, if your home mtn truly needs avy control that badly, you should not need an argument. I would get in contact with someone like AIARE or AAI. Where is this mtn out of curiosity?

Thanks for the ideas.
The resort is south of the equator so it's nearly the end of winter.
It's in a continent usually associated with red dust not snow avalanche.
The public believe in an evidence and logigic defying way that there are no avalanches here!
Even if they own a beacon, they won't wear it here cos 'there are no avalanches' despite a couple of back country fatalities this winter.
There was a fatality a few years ago in a permanent closure but that was a 'snow slide' so thats ok!

The management (like most ski resorts) doesn't like change and since avi control has always been done by patrol ski cutting (previously often without beacons) they don't see why we should do it differently.
So we get on the lifts first to ski cut out of an ethical obligation.
one of the guys cut a class 2 that buried a beginners cat track a meter deep and the thing that I kicked off also ran onto a flat green run,

The resort is in a national park that allows assistance dogs and the resort does a big fireworks display twice a week but the park doesn't want bombs incase it disturbs a native mouse or something!
Cos of the fireworks they already have a mag. so I guess it would be a case of paperwork and employing someone with the skills.
It does rile me to get sent to jump on hard slab when they use explosives for pretty shows after!
The big hurdle is getting management interested/motivated to change to a modern avi control program.
And their 2 main issues are cost and 'why change it's always been done that way'
I was pushing for a dog cos I've previously beeen a dog handler and it frustrated the hell out of me to be probing debris in a unwitnessed inbounds SA
I do see that a dog's more an 'ambulance at the bottom of the cliff' though and avoiding involvement through a better control program would be better.

The thing we were probing was a hard slab 70m wide 30m to the top of the debris but 1 - 1.5m crown and debris up tp 3m deep.
We had ski cut it twice but jumping on something like that is nearly as effective as hitting it with a pencil until the temps went up later in the day and a skier hit the sweet spot. I tracked down a report later and he stayed on top of a 5m x 5m slab and was not buried.

Is there any credible argument for why a resort wouldn't have a proper avalanche control program? Liability seems like it would be absolutely through the roof if negligence was in any way proven.

Dude. Find a new job. Immediately. Maybe something safer like coal mining or bounty hunting.

You need avalanche control in Australia?
Maybe there's a way to use cane toads or rabbits to your advantage?

Look up the Donner Ski Ranch fatality. Small area with no avalanche control.
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...nner-Ski-Ranch

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Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

You need avalanche control in Australia?
Maybe there's a way to use cane toads or rabbits to your advantage?

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And that is the problem!

In most of the continent: no, not at all, ever!

But in the mountains where there is the terrain capable of producing a slide, and the snow capable of producing a slide and people, then yes, absolutely, how many fatalities and work injuries do you and our management need to see it.

You know, in the absence of explosives, you could mitigate a fair few of your problem areas by having a snowcat just push a ton (or three) of snow over the edge of the top of the slope to overload the potential problem. If it doesn't go, it's a pretty good load test. It's only got to be a handful of days in a normal season that there is a real problem and those days are going to be pretty obvious. I'm pretty confident I know which resort you're talking about and the problem areas are well known (and very isolated) and most of them are pretty accessible by a snowcat (or could be).

Dog's great for PR, not all that great for a live recovery (or indicating on a fresh burial). In bounds, where people do not wear a beacon. Get the resort to buy/lease/be given for free a RECCO unit and have them readily available (and people trained with them).

Hey Mel! There was a good presentation at ISSW this year about ski cutting: http://www.isswabstracts.com/abstrac...hp?abs_id=2305

I think the paper itself is a small enough file to email. PM me and I'll try to get it to you. Not too sure it'll tip the balance in your favor however. Have you tried the risk manager instead of the operations folks? And +1 for the Donner Ski Ranch accident as a relevant case study to look into.

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Originally Posted by travis

Hey Mel! There was a good presentation at ISSW this year about ski cutting: http://www.isswabstracts.com/abstrac...hp?abs_id=2305

I think the paper itself is a small enough file to email. PM me and I'll try to get it to you.

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Hijack! I'd like a copy of that paper - check your PMs.

Sounds like management and the board will only listen to the threat of lawsuits.

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Originally Posted by oreo

You know, in the absence of explosives, you could mitigate a fair few of your problem areas by having a snowcat just push a ton (or three) of snow over the edge of the top of the slope to overload the potential problem. If it doesn't go, it's a pretty good load test. It's only got to be a handful of days in a normal season that there is a real problem and those days are going to be pretty obvious. I'm pretty confident I know which resort you're talking about and the problem areas are well known (and very isolated) and most of them are pretty accessible by a snowcat (or could be).

Dog's great for PR, not all that great for a live recovery (or indicating on a fresh burial). In bounds, where people do not wear a beacon. Get the resort to buy/lease/be given for free a RECCO unit and have them readily available (and people trained with them).

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1.That would be awesome if you could get a cat into all the starting zones
2.RECCO works great if you have a chip
3.A dog can be deployed and search a bigger area faster than a RECCO if properly trained if it is a fresh burial a avie dog will find you pretty quick
4.RECCO is only one component a rescue/recovery
5.You should have friends that can rescue you before help arrives
6.#5 should be #1

Lot of good info in this thread, thanks all!

Google this "Swiss 4 phase dog progression"

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Originally Posted by oreo

You know, in the absence of explosives, you could mitigate a fair few of your problem areas by having a snowcat just push a ton (or three) of snow over the edge of the top of the slope to overload the potential problem.

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Mt Baldy near Los Angeles does that, apparently one day the cat pushed a little too far and went for an exciting ride to the bottom. Operator was fine after they dug out the cat.