Stiff Bros: The Life and Death

Do two things when they frist show up. First, wax them, a shitload. The bases come with essentially no wax and are very dry. I couldn't get mine waxed before the first ride and they sucked ass. A homemade ski baking device would come in handy, but I found 3-4 coats of spring temp wax followed up by a coat or two of cooler stuff did the trick. Two, get a file and detune the tips and tails. They come super sharp hooked like crazy on me until I did this. I also remounted mine 1.5 cm's back but I think it's just a personal thing acquired by skiing explosives and tankers for a few years.

With no wax, crazy edges, and hardpack my first day on them blew, unless I could just go straight. They refused to turn, but if I stayed within 3 degrees of the fall line they just devoured the mountain. Unbelieveably damp and stable. After waxing, detuning, and remounting I figured out how to rail them pretty good, but hardpack meant they had to stay on the leash. Finally got them in some pow a few days before i had to go back to cali and they blew me away. Very floaty/pivoty and the faster you go the better they turn. Also LOVED the weight hiking around Alta, such a difference from my Volkls. Couple patrollers liked what they saw too.

As for the death....multiple lawndarts off the Finder, plus they were blems with blown sidewalls to begin with. These had the fir cores and I can't believe they lasted as long as they did. The guys from 401K (www.coldsmokeawards.com) caught the second one on vid so if any Bozone mags go to the show you might see it (orange jacket, gray pants, blue flint, and...bros)

Since I was one of the first to get the stiffies and one of the last to post a review I don't have much to add that hasn't been said already. It hurts my soul to continue skiing my old exploders. The bros do everything they do, but they do it better and weigh half as much. These skis reduce your quiver of skiing mentalities to one: Destroy

Dan, are you back in school??? Your wife pm'd that you were going back to SLC, but I couldn't get any to you in time to replace the ones you broke.

Wish I was there right about now. :frown:

thanks for the review - whats your weight/height , skier type?

5-6, 150, aggressive skier

Pat - No worries dude, I know the situation is beyond your control. How'd ya like the damage :D

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

5-6, 150, aggressive skier

Pat - No worries dude, I know the situation is beyond your control. How'd ya like the damage :D

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WELL DONE!!!!

Dan....Thanks for the info mang. We'll have to do somethin next year with regards to the initial waxing issues and such. Thanks for the feedback.

Oh and Laramie, when DTM says he skis aggressively....it's with a capital fkn-A. The mang flat out charges.

I have not skied the Bro's, but I'd like to add something here...DTM skied these with blown out sidewalls and he was still charging and going big. Not for a long time, but these skis facking rule.

Super light, I wish I had a pair for myself. A bomber ski that is really light...I can't wait for a shorter version!

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces

Dan....Thanks for the info mang. We'll have to do somethin next year with regards to the initial waxing issues and such. Thanks for the feedback.

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Waxing would be nice, but I am curious about the stock tune:

What is the protocol for current Bros??

I assume the bases are ground flat after pressing. How did some of the original fir core skis end up with such concave bases? I know there was a manufacturing glitch that made them concave, but why were they not grinding them flat enough?
My ski was so concave, that I would not have wanted to ski it, and i know PM Gear would not want someone to judge your ski's performance in that condition.

Splat says 1 degree, 2 degree, which is what I had done after getting the base flattened (almost - they left a few low spots just to save material). This is my standard tune anyway, and I liked the way Bros feel with this setup.

What is the factory tune?
Is it zero degree zero degree??
One degree, one degree?

aspen cores are coming with 1 base, 2 side

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

Waxing would be nice, but I am curious about the stock tune:

What is the protocol for current Bros??

I assume the bases are ground flat after pressing. How did some of the original fir core skis end up with such concave bases? I know there was a manufacturing glitch that made them concave, but why were they not grinding them flat enough?
My ski was so concave, that I would not have wanted to ski it, and i know PM Gear would not want someone to judge your ski's performance in that condition.

Splat says 1 degree, 2 degree, which is what I had done after getting the base flattened (almost - they left a few low spots just to save material). This is my standard tune anyway, and I liked the way Bros feel with this setup.

What is the factory tune?
Is it zero degree zero degree??
One degree, one degree?

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This has been addressed a number of times here. Actually, the glitch was a manufacturing failure to account for 1/2 mm less of sidewall height to compensate for the edge teeth. This allowed the bases to rise up in the middle. I posted a number of times here how to address the situation, since almost every shop tech 'expert' in the world thinks grinding is the ultimate panacea; whereas, the simple cure I outlined was to add material in the high spots with a base weld gun, then do a finish grind to get a flat base.

Protocol - as I stated here, is that the skis came out rough, no tune, no bevel, and would need the 1/2 bevel, slight detune, a light grind, and the baseweld cure if concavity was present. And wax.

It would be insane to keep grinding a ski simply to make it flat at the expense of the base and edges. Even with a flat-ground base and a 0/0 bevel on skis on the racks at stores, most people end up having the skis tuned and waxed before walking out the door. Eliminating this redundancy helped us keep the cost down. The Bros might be a bit rough on delivery, but for a bunch of maggots who dreamed of and built a first-time ski, I think we've done a hell of a job designing a board that rocks. And we've tweaked it continually to make it better as we've gone. Large companies with better economies of scale, superior resources, and big reputations have shipped thousands of skis that were far inferior after years of design and testing.

I'm damn proud of what we've done to ship the Bros to you guys at the preorder price $450. And damn grateful to every one of you who had the faith and patience to take that ride with us and be able to enjoy the ride you now posess. Thanks, Core Shot!

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Originally Posted by splat

This has been addressed a number of times here. Actually, the glitch was a manufacturing failure to account for 1/2 mm less of sidewall height to compensate for the edge teeth. This allowed the bases to rise up in the middle. I posted a number of times here how to address the situation, since almost every shop tech 'expert' in the world thinks grinding is the ultimate panacea; whereas, the simple cure I outlined was to add material in the high spots with a base weld gun, then do a finish grind to get a flat base.

Protocol - as I stated here, is that the skis came out rough, no tune, no bevel, and would need the 1/2 bevel, slight detune, a light grind, and the baseweld cure if concavity was present. And wax.

It would be insane to keep grinding a ski simply to make it flat at the expense of the base and edges. Even with a flat-ground base and a 0/0 bevel on skis on the racks at stores, most people end up having the skis tuned and waxed before walking out the door. Eliminating this redundancy helped us keep the cost down. The Bros might be a bit rough on delivery, but for a bunch of maggots who dreamed of and built a first-time ski, I think we've done a hell of a job designing a board that rocks. And we've tweaked it continually to make it better as we've gone. Large companies with better economies of scale, superior resources, and big reputations have shipped thousands of skis that were far inferior after years of design and testing.

I'm damn proud of what we've done to ship the Bros to you guys at the preorder price $450. And damn grateful to every one of you who had the faith and patience to take that ride with us and be able to enjoy the ride you now posess. Thanks, Core Shot!

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I totally appreciate the desire to keep costs down, but I gotta wonder if there aren't folks out there skiing your skis on a bad or absent tune and calling them crap.
Without naming names or calling anyone out, the Bro ski I acquired second hand was not happily tuned. It was so concave (and not just in spots, but all over) and so dry that there was no way I was going to ski it. I never checked bevels, but I hope the poor guy who skied it at least had the base and edge beveled.

There are many folks (not me) that are used to not tuning a new ski- only waxing and mounting for them. These users may be your worst PR nightmare. Having not been an original Bro purchaser, I hope that you have huge stickers on the skis saying "Caution - tune this ski before use"

Sorry I missed the debate on welding versus grinding - but I do know that the shop I used does some of the best tunes in the US.

I totally understand if you want to sell un-tuned skis - just make sure your end user knows this and knows the importance of a proper tune.

What I don't understand are the concave skis that were sold with PMGear logos. Your reputation is everything. Quality Control is key. If the bases were that concave, it should have been picked up in QC, and it should have been welded and re-ground before it reached the end consumer.

P.S. - the reason I might seem critical is becuase I love the ski and want it to make a good impression. A ski with a bad tune cannot do that.

[edit to say - 0/0 can be skiable, but anything this wide really needs a 0.5 or 1 degree base bevel to keep from being hooky and grabby when running flat, and if you want any decent ice grip, you need to go sharper than a 90 degree angle. 1 degree 2 degree is a great tune and made the ski happy.]

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

I gotta wonder if there aren't folks out there skiing your skis on a bad or absent tune and calling them crap.

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you can still get a good idea how they will perform without even tuning the edges. i skied mine for about a month with a 0/0 tune from the factory. i didn't even take the time to detune the tip and tail. i was just happy to have them and didn't care. they did hookup in the resorts on the groomers but i just kept them in the air during that part of the turn. in hindsight i would have had them tuned right away and they would have been perfect from the start but it was nice to feel the progression of having tuned edges and then a fully waxed base. it took a lite base grind to get the pores open enough to hold the wax. i waxed them about 10 times before skiing and for 2 months after every other day of skiind before finally deciding to do it. they sure hold the wax better now.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces

We'll have to do somethin next year with regards to the initial waxing issues and such. Thanks for the feedback.

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My vote is hot box them and recomend that people do at least 8 coats of lf 10 and let soak over 6 hours between coats (the old RCS racing treatment :biggrin: )

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

I totally appreciate the desire to keep costs down, but I gotta wonder if there aren't folks out there skiing your skis on a bad or absent tune and calling them crap.
Without naming names or calling anyone out, the Bro ski I acquired second hand was not happily tuned. It was so concave (and not just in spots, but all over) and so dry that there was no way I was going to ski it. I never checked bevels, but I hope the poor guy who skied it at least had the base and edge beveled.

There are many folks (not me) that are used to not tuning a new ski- only waxing and mounting for them. These users may be your worst PR nightmare. Having not been an original Bro purchaser, I hope that you have huge stickers on the skis saying "Caution - tune this ski before use"

Sorry I missed the debate on welding versus grinding - but I do know that the shop I used does some of the best tunes in the US.

I totally understand if you want to sell un-tuned skis - just make sure your end user knows this and knows the importance of a proper tune.

What I don't understand are the concave skis that were sold with PMGear logos. Your reputation is everything. Quality Control is key. If the bases were that concave, it should have been picked up in QC, and it should have been welded and re-ground before it reached the end consumer.

P.S. - the reason I might seem critical is becuase I love the ski and want it to make a good impression. A ski with a bad tune cannot do that.

[edit to say - 0/0 can be skiable, but anything this wide really needs a 0.5 or 1 degree base bevel to keep from being hooky and grabby when running flat, and if you want any decent ice grip, you need to go sharper than a 90 degree angle. 1 degree 2 degree is a great tune and made the ski happy.]

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Totally agree with you, Core Shot. But as the head rep of the biggest lil dirtbag ski company perhaps in the world, (without trying to sound whiny) I have to reiterate that we had the most minimal of resources to work with to pull this off, an insane timeframe to do it in, numerous production problems, and a core base of buyers located here. So communicating via this board was the best broadcast, although I did include some tuning tips in the many of the pairs of skis shipped. If we can do what we did in months, give us a another year and see what happens. A lot of people here and on the Bros know what it took to make this happen.

Did we get in over our heads with too little capital, resources, talent, capability, and a scarcity of competent manufacturing? YES.
But we worked through it and delivered some truly bomber boards.
Will we rock hard next season and increase our offering and quality? Oh, Yeah.

I really do appreciate your concern for the first impressions people might get not knowing the correct care for a rough product.
What we learned about many things will prove invaluable as we go forward.
Peace.

I gotta say I dig my Stiffies!
I believe I got one of the first pair of the Aspen Cores -- the flex is awesome. I knew about the waxing thing, but was unaware of the concavity issues when I got mine (mine might have been the first pair with that problem). I wish I had known about the fix before the shop ground the shit out of my skis. I will say that Splat DID offer multiple options to make it right for me. I did not (will not) pursue any course of action that will incur any expense to PM Gear. I think its pretty cool to participate with this whole thing and I'm stoked to help it along by being understanding about minor issues. They are skis, for christs sake! In a year or two I'll probably get something new... not because they're crummy or worn out or whatever, but just because there's something NEW out there that I just have to have. Might even be new, improved Bros!
For now, I'll just keep tearing around on my FIRST YEAR Bros (FKNA!), with a big old grin, enjoying living in the moment on a big mountain with blue skies and deep pow...

Bros showed up at my door a couple weeks ago. I have 5 days on them so far in every snow condition imaginable for Cali. They kill it all...so happpy with them.

One thing though...gondola's...Bros don't like 'em...at least Mammoth's. After the first day on them with a handful of gondi laps, I noticed one of the tails was delaminating about a half inch deep across the entire tail span. Now the baskets on the Mammoth gondi are little small and one Bro just barely fits in each slot. Throw a little wind into the mix and the skis really take some abuse each time.

Once at home, I stuffed some epoxy under the topsheet and molded some around the tail. Then I put three rivets in each tail. Four days later and more gondi time than I can count and they are both holding up great.
No big deal, all's well that ends well.

Maybe for next year, how about some rivets in the tails or maybe a cap of some sort?

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Do two things when they frist show up. First, wax them, a shitload. Two, get a file and detune the tips and tails.

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not to be a dick...but that's not specific to PM. That'd be any new ski. IMO factory bevels/base structure should be corrected about 3/4 of the time too.

Also, my bases are pretty damn good. I'm not even going to touch them. For the first day I waxed them six times and detuned the tips and tails. They can definitely soak up the wax. They were very hooky even with on hill detuning. For the second day I had the 1:2 edge bevel done with some tip/tail detuning and they were and still are dialed. Just gotta keep waxing them very frequently until they get some more time.

The Bros FKNA rock everything and get lots of questions and comments.

Lets see, just in this tiny thread of maggots that should know better, we have DTM, APD and Haus skiing a 0/0 tune. Most eventually went to a real tune with some base bevel.
Curious how many others there are out there.
I hope they didn't lend their untuned boards to some potential customer and lose a Bro sale for PMGear.

Yes, it can be a good experiment to see what different tunes feel like, but to me, that's like putting snow tires or low pereformance tires on your Ferrari so you can feel how good the real summer performance tires are.

Still not clear if DTM skied Bros with anyting other than 0/0 since his main advice was to "wax the hell out of them and detune tips and tails"
With zero base bevel you need lots of detuning.

Perhaps a Bro tuning and mounting page at www.pmgearusa.com would be helpful to new Bro owners.
Not everyone knows about TGR, and even here it is hard to search because "bro" is a three letter word.

having more data on your website could help us all.

sort of a Bro FAQ or Bro "FAQ-n-A"

agreed that stressing that tuning first is important.. but there arent many people (yet) that know about the bros that arent: 1) knowledgable 2) good enough skiers to know how to fix tuning issues with skis 3) pretty stoked on the concept.

to get to a wider market, and keep the peeps happy, pmgear will need to change their process a bit - in the meantime, theyre kicking ass for what they are right now.

bros rule!

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

Still not clear if DTM skied Bros with anyting other than 0/0 since his main advice was to "wax the hell out of them and detune tips and tails"

With zero base bevel you need lots of detuning.

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From talking to him and seeing the skis, I'm quite certain he didn't do anything more than wax & detune them.