ques for parents of rippers: kids in BC?

when do parents decide to take kids into beacon/probe/shovel territory? specifically steep sidecountry, not just mellow skinning in the BC

we have gated access at our home hill that my son is begging to try. he is 9yo and has the skiing skills to make it down these slopes with the right guiding/mentoring (purely from the skiing side of it). so far i've told him, "i'll take you when you can dig me out", and i've warned him about sneaking behind my back to do it with friends that the penalty is the loss/death of a friend or him (due to accident, not filicide)

what are your thoughts on this?

It depends on so many kid factors and snow factors.

I took mine out when they were 6 and 8, but they were stable days.

There's also virtually no chance of them deciding to go out alone since we always ski with them and each of them are cautious about any kind of sidecountry.

I've done a fair amount of avie education between taking them to Silverton, the usual cautionary parental glop and spending time playing transciever hide and seek.

I'm not a parent so I haven't personally had to deal with this, but fwiw: in our ski school we have had a course called "powder for kids" the last couple of years where kids roughly that age and a little older are taken into lift accessed sidecountry for five consecutive days by a mountain guide and taught some basics. Over half the time is spent doing beacon drills, looking at terrain and discussing it etc. A long run down to another valley is the big reward at the end. This has been very successful and the kids proved very eager to learn. These are local kids that would start exploring anyway on their own sooner rather than later, which I think a lot of the parents worry about. The kids would sort of scoff at their clueless peers after the course and proudly announced that they would never ride without proper safety gear.

I think that kids that age can be pretty responsible if taught well and that it can be preferable to start teaching them early if there is a chance that they will be exploring anyway. Since you can do whatever you please in Europe you get gangs of local children ripping around the easy access sidecountry after school and they obviously end up pushing further and further out, which can get quite worrying.

oh, and there was a program in some elementary schools here this year where a mountain guide comes in for a couple of hours and does some very basic avalanche awareness stuff with the kids, like putting sand on a table and making something slide on the "weak layer" - that kind of thing. A guide friend who did this said it was challenging for him but the kids ate it up.

In the specific instance you describe, I wouldn't take my youngster out until she is proficient with companion rescue and basic first aid. Mine isn't anywhere near that age yet, but from memories growing up in a farming community, most youngsters were physically capable and mentally competent to start learning such responsibility around the age yours is. Probably better to learn the skills now than when they become teenagers even. But as others have said, depends on the kid and conditions.

When they are old enough to hike up. Around 6 with my sons. We were never around sidecountry. I didn't let them ski bc alone till the youngest was 13 oldest 15. Than they cleared the line with me first.

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Originally Posted by acinpdx

when do parents decide to take kids into beacon/probe/shovel territory? specifically steep sidecountry, not just mellow skinning in the BC

we have gated access at our home hill that my son is begging to try. he is 9yo and has the skiing skills to make it down these slopes with the right guiding/mentoring (purely from the skiing side of it). so far i've told him, "i'll take you when you can dig me out", and i've warned him about sneaking behind my back to do it with friends that the penalty is the loss/death of a friend or him (due to accident, not filicide)

what are your thoughts on this?

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i frequently expose my lil guy to the temperamental bc routes in my area. he's 10 now and been traveling in big snow since 8. i do not advise most parents to expose their young children to this environment until they are ready for the worst possible outcome.
big snow fields and terrain traps surrounded by tree wells and folks sluffing from above are only a few of the problems. have a crew help with contact and support if you decide to roll the dice.
we got hosed last season and while i was being carried away he hung on to a tree limb as the debris flowed under his skis.
b

When it's level one on all aspects. Kids aren't capable of making a rational risk/reward assessment, and while you can make that assessment for yourself you cannot morally make it for your kids. Does that mean kids can't be subjected to any risk at any time--of course not. Resort skiing has risk. Soccer has risk. But the risk in avalanche terrain is orders of magnitude higher.

Since kids don't have a remote control, and endless decisions are required for safe route finding, you need to have confidence that your kids are capable of some basics, like tree well management / awareness, blind rollovers that could be cliffs. Once they reach that level, begin to practice beacon work as games & skiing with backpack (w/gear in it). Then one day they are out of the gates, or up the skin track and they are familiar with many aspects of BC travel. And on their first days, why take them into areas of needless risk & condition? Green days seem smart. Also, why put them in a position on the first BC days where they must dig you out, in the worst case? Bring a couple adults.

keep it simple and they will have fun. Start slow and carry lots of chocolate. I started my kids hiking the resort after it closed for the season. Be on the lookout for the silveretta kids binding which can handle small boot sizes and low din. Then when their boots get up to 265 you can use the f12. Play with the beacon in the house. dig in the snow and talk about what you see. I keep my kids up to date on slide fatalities and what was learned from the incident. I'm not worried about taking them out into the backcountry when they are little as much as I'm worried about how they will travel when they are in they're early 20's. I hope that I'm instilling a sense of respect and not exposing them to a form of travel that will get them in trouble later on.

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Originally Posted by klar

I think that kids that age can be pretty responsible if taught well and that it can be preferable to start teaching them early if there is a chance that they will be exploring anyway.

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def agree

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Originally Posted by BCMountainHound

In the specific instance you describe, I wouldn't take my youngster out until she is proficient with companion rescue and basic first aid.

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I tend to agree on the capable of rescue part. I hadn't thought about first aid, but that might provide some incentive for him as he gets older to follow through with the preparation and understanding what he's asking to get into. Just wondering if i set the bar too high he may balk and just skip out on his own

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Originally Posted by old goat

Kids aren't capable of making a rational risk/reward assessment

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we adults aren't always either -- this is what scares me a little as he approaches the teen years. i feel like the early education (like klar brings up) to be the only thing i can do because he will explore without me one day

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Originally Posted by anemic

Since kids don't have a remote control, and endless decisions are required for safe route finding, you need to have confidence that your kids are capable of some basics, like tree well management / awareness, blind rollovers that could be cliffs.

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that education thing again -- tree wells, terrain traps, convexities, snow bridges...continental snowpack vs maritime snowpack...time of year

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Originally Posted by chiller

I'm not worried about taking them out into the backcountry when they are little

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i guess this is part of it too -- i feel like i could take him on days when the danger is low and only expose him to limited issues one at a time, but i'm pausing because i'm worried he may decide he knows enough to go on his own. how to draw the line for him and keep him safe AND stoked to explore? i don't want to squash his enthusiasm to explore by scaring the shit out of him

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Originally Posted by chiller

as much as I'm worried about how they will travel when they are in they're early 20's.

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well, teens and beyond really

My kid is 13 - we've been BC skiing for about 4 years now. I stick to low risk days and look at it as a chance to teach safe practices, gear, etc. while he's still willing to pay attention to what I say. At this point things like always wearing a beacon and carrying probe and shovel are second nature. His beacon search skills are probably better than mine. We look at the avy report and talk terrain traps, route choice, risk assessment, etc. as we go. He's not always going to make good choices but at least he's aware of the risks, and understands the difference between inbounds and backcountry.

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Originally Posted by acinpdx

i guess this is part of it too -- i feel like i could take him on days when the danger is low and only expose him to limited issues one at a time, but i'm pausing because i'm worried he may decide he knows enough to go on his own. how to draw the line for him and keep him safe AND stoked to explore? i don't want to squash his enthusiasm to explore by scaring the shit out of him

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It seems like one of the more valuable things you could do is go out with him and back away from skiing something. If you only take him out on low danger days, he might overlook the fact that frequently you're not able to ski what you really want to. Not to say that you should take him out on high danger days, just saying that it seems like it'd be good to leave a lasting impression that sometimes you walk to the top and end up having to ski back down the skin track.

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Originally Posted by acinpdx

i guess this is part of it too -- i don't want to squash his enthusiasm to explore by scaring the shit out of him and beyond really

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I feel like you need to instill a fair amount of fear in the young skiers.
This is not a controlled environment you want to introduce yours into.
Good luck on the adventures, stay safe.
B

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Originally Posted by acinpdx

. so far i've told him, "i'll take you when you can dig me out"

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I think you are spot on for backcountry. If you are thinking about Superbowl in the spring, I'd let him go with you once he can identify sketchy conditions and find a beacon within 5 min in rescue drills. The skills won't have a lot of practical benefit at his age, but you can motivate him to start learning snow sense now.

If your really concerned about your child being capable of digging you out than you probably should not be skiing outside the resort with them.

BFD, not so much that he's my only safety net or that there are never safe conditions, but that he has a base level of training & proficiency before he's a BC partner for me or anyone.

I'd like to set a bar for him to work towards. Instead of, "when you turn 14", or "when you can ski dbl black terrain". Maybe it's too simplistic?

He asks all the time and I'm not comfortable taking him out yet and I want to give him hope that it will happen but a real reason that he can't do it yet. Not just because i said so. And he's still nine so he won't sit still long enough to listen to the long version of why

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Originally Posted by acinpdx

BFD, not so much that he's my only safety net or that there are never safe conditions, but that he has a base level of training & proficiency before he's a BC partner for me or anyone.

I'd like to set a bar for him to work towards. Instead of, "when you turn 14", or "when you can ski dbl black terrain". Maybe it's too simplistic?

He asks all the time and I'm not comfortable taking him out yet and I want to give him hope that it will happen but a real reason that he can't do it yet. Not just because i said so. And he's still nine so he won't sit still long enough to listen to the long version of why

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I've got a background and experience with this sort of thing similar to klar's.

I don't think the goal of being able to dig you out is a reasonable one. Even if he is incredibly precocious and level-headed, and you teach him to be very fast with a beacon, he won't be strong enough to ski a big-ass pile of avy debris and then move the 100-200 pounds of snow necessary to dig someone out in time. Kids that age just can't have the strength and stamina necessary for a successful rescue.

I would start by teaching him terrain management and beacon skills inbounds for a couple days. Make sure he can ski mank and crust at least enough to pick his way down something. Then, go out with your most trusted and safest touring partner on something mellow and you and your partner ski everything as if you were lead and tail guiding. He can start learning safe practices from you in this way. By the time he's getting closer to his teenage years, he'll grow and be strong enough to dig someone out, but he will hopefully not have his head completely up his ass like so many kids that age.

Most important thing is to share your passion with your children. If your son can ski it and you are comfortable with your decision making take him. If he wants to pursuit this aspect of skiing he will acquire the skills over time. I am not a professional sirdhred made a good post.

waiting till their 'old enough' could be a long wait with limited time to really train. start the process early and have a small sense of progression throughout the learning process.
b

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Originally Posted by Sirshredalot

I've got a background and experience with this sort of thing similar to klar's.

I don't think the goal of being able to dig you out is a reasonable one. Even if he is incredibly precocious and level-headed, and you teach him to be very fast with a beacon, he won't be strong enough to ski a big-ass pile of avy debris and then move the 100-200 pounds of snow necessary to dig someone out in time. Kids that age just can't have the strength and stamina necessary for a successful rescue.

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for the reasons you give, that's kind of why i used that goal -- it defers his expectation of going there

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Originally Posted by Sirshredalot

I would start by teaching him terrain management and beacon skills inbounds for a couple days. Make sure he can ski mank and crust at least enough to pick his way down something. Then, go out with your most trusted and safest touring partner on something mellow and you and your partner ski everything as if you were lead and tail guiding. He can start learning safe practices from you in this way. By the time he's getting closer to his teenage years, he'll grow and be strong enough to dig someone out, but he will hopefully not have his head completely up his ass like so many kids that age.

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^^^this makes a lot of sense to me. And, it will give him some hope of limited and progressive access to new terrain/conditions as he learns more

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Originally Posted by BFD

Most important thing is to share your passion with your children. If your son can ski it and you are comfortable with your decision making take him. If he wants to pursuit this aspect of skiing he will acquire the skills over time.

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yup, well said, thanks

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Originally Posted by flowing alpy

waiting till their 'old enough' could be a long wait with limited time to really train. start the process early and have a small sense of progression throughout the learning process.
b

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agreed...this way i can say yes to taking him earlier on the right days/conditions and it doesn't make the first trip so precious that it's uncomfortable

small steps are the way to go