Knee Friendly Bindings

Potential Tech-Talk - but i figured I'll start here. After a bit of searching - I really didn't come away with a strong take away as to what the consensus is about the most knee friendly binding post ACL replacement.

Obviously - I am concerned about my knee strength and stability moving forward after surgery this past November... so I am trying to minimize my future risk of re-injury or injury to my 'good' leg.

What bindings are the most knee friendly - specifically which touring set up is most knee friendly?

I have driver toe STH14's on my skis now, and with future mounts being required... I'm thinking of the best route to go. I was very close to mounting SollyFits on some new sticks - but now am questioning if Dynafits are the way to go with a questionable knee. Do they pose a potential risk of not having enough play in them?

That got me thinking then - if I want to accomplish touring - what method should I go? Duke/Guardian route with a more traditional toe? Or MFD route with the STH's on their? That said - I could go MFD with pivots too...

Do pivots play more nicely to knees than other 'traditional' bindings?

If this has been covered - I'll read - i just need the link.

Can't really give you any advice on knee friendly touring bindings, but with alpine bindings you should go with "knee bindings".

"knee bindings" are the only bindings on the market that can claim they mitigate ACL injury by having a lateral heal release. My wife convinced me to get them with her after she had ACL surgery last winter. I've been pleasantly surprised with them so far this year. They are rock solid bindings, no pre-release, ect. Can't really speak of the lateral release since I haven't had that kind of fall this year, but the peace of mind is well worth the money.

As far as touring bindings, i own several pairs of dynafits and I would say the release tensions on those are much more forgiving than you'll get with Dukes.

just my 2 cents

I know about knee bindings... but it all just seems a bit like a joke still...

If their product is really that good - how come it hasn't taken off yet? I imagine that people within the ski industry must have given it a chance - or at least evaluated it in the past, yet none of them have adopted it. If it was a truly great technology with potential for being a viable binding - how come one of the big manufacturer's haven't bought them up yet?

It almost seems knee binding doesn't take themselves seriously yet either - their branding and website is pseudo 1998.

Just seems all a bit fishy.

I'm mainly looking for the best non - knee binding option.

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Originally Posted by gointhedistance

I know about knee bindings... but it all just seems a bit like a joke still...

If their product is really that good - how come it hasn't taken off yet? I imagine that people within the ski industry must have given it a chance - or at least evaluated it in the past, yet none of them have adopted it. If it was a truly great technology with potential for being a viable binding - how come one of the big manufacturer's haven't bought them up yet?

It almost seems knee binding doesn't take themselves seriously yet either - their branding and website is pseudo 1998.

Just seems all a bit fishy.

I'm mainly looking for the best non - knee binding option.

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I definitely agree with you. I was super skeptical at first, their website is horrible and there are no places to demo the bindings. Not sure why nobody has bought them or others have duplicated their ideas. I think part of the problem is their patents which doesn't allow other binding manufacturers to make anything similar and the fact that techs need a special jig to mount them. It's definitely a fringe market and a joke to some people. Personally, they feel better than the older LOOK bindings I've used the 3 seasons before this year for whatever it's worth.

Right now the best non-knee binding option means still not having any lateral heal release, and yea it'd definitely be nice to have touring binding technology that has that.

Good luck with the recovery.

I can't comment on whether there's actual data suggesting one binding is superior to another in preventing knee injuries (I realize that the Knee Bindings claim a theoretical advantage, but I think the jury's still out on that one in practice). What has been shown to decrease the rate of injuries is first and foremost, not trying to recover from a backwards fall (ACLs tear during backward, twisting falls). The second oft neglected aspect is core strength. A recent study looked at ski athletes and measured quad strength, hamstring strength, etc, while correlating this data to ACL tear rates, and the main protective factor was surprisingly not leg strength, but core strength. Probably this is because we rely on core strength to maintain our center of gravity forward as we ski, and it's our center of gravity moving back that increases the likelihood of backwards, twisting falls. If you're going to be data-driven, then I'd recommend strengthening your abs and back...that and keeping your fingers crossed as you ski.

Best of luck to everyone out there and stay safe.

The misery of acl injury and recovery taught me the hard way that I can ski on a much lower din setting than I though I could get away with before. I really believe now that as long as bindings are set up properly, there is little need to crank them beyond reccomended din settings. I have skied on Dynafits, Looks, and Dukes this season on 8.5-9 and skied as hard as ever and only lost a ski when I deserved to loose a ski, as in when I crashed or was going down in a twisting gaper fall. Most modern bindings are very resistant to releasing under normal skiing forces they are subjected to by your average skier. High level racing and hucking huge are quite different circumstance so besides that...

I have new respect for the way bindings are desinged to work and I for sure had at least one moment this year where I would have blown a knee again needlessly on some bullshit end of day gaper fall in flat light chunder. Not one prerelease all year, and I am also very happy with the release characteristics of each binding at these release values, dynafit included. I think way too many people are blowing knees nowadays because of too high a din setting for whatever reason and it's just not worth it. I guess I used to set mine too high cause I didn't really know what a blown acl entails so I just cracked 'em. Set whatever bindings at reccomended values, ski at least moderately fluidly and in control and trust the bindings.

I have been skiing on one ACL for 3 seasons now and looked hard at knee binders ago after I popped it, ended up with look turntables set at 10. One release from a crappy landing and one from a wreck in the trees and they popped off nice. As mentioned Knee binders were hard to get much hands on about.

As Ortho says about Core strength, I agree and have to say putting leg muscle on in the gym and on the bike have really helped too. I ski a bit more forward now

I'm about a year post-op from my ACL surgery and it's been on hell of a year. I had a lot of complications with surgery, so much so that Dr. Biem told me to never, ever do this again. If I did, she wasn't sure surgery would even be an option or if I would be able to ski again. Ouch.
Since then, I've worked a lot on core strength and technique. Rather than blindly throwing myself down the mountain, I actually try to have some idea of what I'm doing and how to do it well. It's amazing what a few refresher lessons can teach you and how much better my skiing became after taking a few weeks to go back to the basics. I think that this is a huge part of the process. Simply taking the time to slowly build your strength and skill back up.

In the backcountry I ski dynafits with the din settings down a bit lower than I had them before. I've actually come to believe that, with the exception of those hucking 40 footers into 50 degree Alaskan faces that go on and on for 3000 vertical feet or those professional skiers that put me to shame, din settings above 13 are more about pride than actual function - some new way for bros to measure the length of their johnson.

Rather than cranking up my dins, I crank them down and make sure that my lines are clean and that I know what I'm doing. I'm much more calculating, precise and focused than I was before my knee injury.
On piste, I use knee bindings. I know, I know, I was doubtful about them. You expect something that actually works in the ski industry to catch on like wild fire. Then again, marketing something as "safe" isn't the best way to appeal to this crowd.

Dr. Biem recommended them to me with a "give it a shot, you can always return them at REI" attitude, and I actually have to say - I love them. They're solid, more solid than my previous bindings. No pre-releases, and I feel strong in them. I haven't had a twisting fall yet, but they've performed brilliantly thus far.

Though I love them, it's not so much the bindings but my strength and technique as well as simply being smart and listening to myself as opposed to every one else, that's going to keep me safe, healthy and happy.

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Originally Posted by snow gypsy

Rather than cranking up my dins, I crank them down and make sure that my lines are clean and that I know what I'm doing.

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So true, much better to release at the binding than at the acl. I'm around 200 lbs and keep my fks binders at 8 for most normal skiing, and might crank them to 9 if out west where there is consequence to pre-releasing. I ski hard and have never had issue with a din of 8 not being enough. Making sure lines are clean and knowing the terrain is supper important. That being said my twice reconstructed ACL is rock solid, my big problem now is no meniscus, so I'm not hucking anything or straight lining large faces at 100+ km/h which is where you might need to consider a higher din setting.

I also think the FKS with turntable heals are an awesome option post ACL as they can allow for a lower din setting as these are some of the most forgiving binding vis-a-vis pre-release. Your boot can move around quite a bit in this design without the bindings releasing which is a great option if worried about higher din's torking your knees.

I didnt read every reply yet, but look pivots have lateral heel release.

Also, I beleive the pivots are safer on the knees WHEN HEALTHY< but while recovering there is no substitute for just taking it easy, a prerelease can be just as devastating as a failure to release if your knee isnt 100% to begin with. Just take it easy and work up gradually.

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

... but look pivots have lateral heel release.

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Uh... no.

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Originally Posted by iscariot

Uh... no.

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yea common misconception about the look pivots or the rossi FKS. They have play in the heel to prevent pre-release, doesn't actually release at the heel. A backwards twisting fall and you'd be screwed just like all the other alpine bindings.

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

I didnt read every reply yet, but look pivots have lateral heel release.

Also, I beleive the pivots are safer on the knees WHEN HEALTHY< but while recovering there is no substitute for just taking it easy, a prerelease can be just as devastating as a failure to release if your knee isnt 100% to begin with. Just take it easy and work up gradually.

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Originally Posted by iscariot

Uh... no.

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iscariot is right.

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Originally Posted by BDKeg

yea common misconception about the look pivots or the rossi FKS. They have play in the heel to prevent pre-release, doesn't actually release at the heel. A backwards twisting fall and you'd be screwed just like all the other alpine bindings.

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I'd say it a little differently, but yeah, that's about right.

I'd say the heel swivels a little, rather than it has play. The design goal was to have a high level of elasticity. That theoretically reduces the incidence of pre-release, and helps the heel to get out of the way of the toe releasing (when it should). The binding does release at the heel - just not laterally. It will release upward, just like all alpine bindings.

I do agree with Leroy, that they are at least as knee-friendly as any other alpine design.

As a side note many Silvretta bindings have had forward and lateral release at the heel. The 404 had it and the short lived SL had it.

Also a note that when I blew out my right ACL years ago it was a forward fall/launch after maching into some windblown crust and suddenly burying the tip of the ski. Was on Voile CRB teles and it sounded like a .22 going off when it popped.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIV4poUZAQo

I'm digging out an old thread, but I've now spent a couple seasons as my own test bunny on various setups. Don't tell my wife, but she's been part of the experimentation too. Figured it's time to share some of my experience here. Obviously only one person's opinion. We ski roughly 50 days a year in Colorado. We aren't pro level, but ski hard on all terrain in all conditions. We are both early thirties, average heights and normal weight. We ski at the recommended DIN settings, no higher. A typical day is ~25k of vertical at Breckenridge, high alpine whenever possible, bumps and trees on E chair if not. Some days at Mary Jane and A Basin. Touring when it's safe and occasional big lines in the spring.

Two years ago I skiied Dynafits exclusively, including in the area. I was touring more then, but still a lot of area days. Frankly, I think the Radicals ski really well. No pre-releases, no slop or any other performance complaints. I do not think they are soft on your body in less than soft snow. My knees and back hurt a lot more than my previous seasons on Marker Barons. Seems like the metal binding to metal inserts in boots are brutal. My wife is post two ACL surgeries (one each leg), about fifteen years ago now (high school soccer). She seems to be developing some early onset arthritis from the surgeries. Knowing that is a common side effect, I'd plan now to be as gentle as possible on your body with your equipment choices. Sounds like you are thinking about that too. IMO, Dynafits are not a great choice for that on all but soft snow touring days.

This year we switched to a mix of Knee Bindings (new to us this season) and I'm sometimes on my older Marker Barons in bounds. Still using the Dyafits for touring, as they tour so much better and the comparatively limited vertical of touring days makes less of a difference on the beating my body takes.

I've found I often have the wrong binding on the skis I want to use. I'm in the process of installing lots of inserts from Binding Freedom. I've mounted two pairs so far. My DPS Wailers are now DynaKnee ready, and I plan on doing more DynaKnee mounts. The pattern actually seems to work fairly well for my boot sole length. I have some S7s with the barons on for side country and Silverton days. I've been skiing those on powder days but plan on using the DynaKnee DPS now that it's mounted up.

The Knee Bindings ski as well as the Barons. I'm not certain I have had a lateral release yet. I am very certain I've had some blowups that should have hurt and I've been golden so far. Would I have done as well on the Barons or Dynafit? Obviously, I can't be sure. I'm nearly positive my wife had a lateral release on the pair I mounted up for her this year. I watched her break through wind crust while coming to a stop on Peak 7 bowl in Breck. Slow backwards fall that looked nearly identical to a previous knee injury scenario I watched helplessly. I was sure she was hurt, but she popped up, put the ski back on, and cruised away without issue. That one moment was worth the money. I have no doubt other alpine bindings wouldn't have released there. She was completely in plane with the ski. Would she have definitely torn something? Not positive, obviously, but I strongly believe so.

Also, I have to compliment Knee Bindings service. Somehow the online retailer that sold me my bindings shipped an extremely old model. Turns out the shop was not an authorized dealer, and somehow was just clearing out some old gear that had somehow procured. The toe pieces had something wrong with them. Knee binding worked with REI (who was mounting the bindings) and replaced them stat, no argument about the fact that I purchased from some random shop online. I also recently broke a part on my binding. One call to their number, great response, worked with me to get parts at a local shop from their current inventory to get me back on the snow immediately. All under warranty.

Bottom line, the Knee Bindings ski well, don't prerelease, have great service backing them, and might save you in a scenario that other bindings would not. I think it's easy to misunderstand what normal bindings do and don't do in terms of release. For a long time I didn't realize that your heel will never let go with lateral force applied, no matter how much. I wish that a binding existed that released in both directions laterally without prerelease issues. The kneebinding at least covers one, which is a lot more than none. Perfect, no. Better, I absolutely think so, especially since, in my opinion, everything else is equal.

I watched my wife blow her ACL skiing Dynafits. She had not fallen or been very far in the back seat. A little shoulder rotation, and pop it went and down she fell. They are great bindings, but I don't think their lateral release function at the heel is that effective as an ACL protector.

Agree, Jethro. When I first bought tech bindings, I had a feeling they might actually have an advantage because of the lateral heel release. It's easier for me to move my toes back and forth laterally than my heel. In practice, my wife partially torn an MCL on tech bindings (demo G3 Onyx, DIN was set properly) and I mildly sprained a knee nailing a rock lurking under soft snow on mine. Could have been worse, but considering the number of consequence free releases I've had on non tech bindings, the injury nearly as soon as I switched over makes me less convinced at the efficacy of their release.