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I realize that a strong aerobic base is key to skinning, but is it helpful to strengthen
the hip flexors as well?
I do a lot of quad, butt and hamstring work with weights, but nothing specific for hip flexors.
I assume these muscles get used while skinning??
What do you do?
No need to do weight training for skinning--just endurance stuff--but I assume you plan to ski down, so base your training on that. I like box jumps myself, in addition to the standard stuff.
I do a lot of leg weights work, and it worked well for mountain biking, got me a lot faster, so I was hoping that there was some magical muscle that I could strengthen to get me faster skinning.
Oh well.
I've thought about this a bit myself since I can't tour as much these days. A lot of step ups or stair climbing with ankle weights and a pack seems like it would be the best way to simulate the demands of skinning. Never actually tried it though.
yeah endurance stuff
IME the skin track really helped with fitness on the bike so i 'm thinking biking would help on the skin track?
I run stairs if in the city and try to get a few trail runs in if possible. Hill climbs on a bike are good too. The muscles used for skinning are really dependent on your skinning technique on whether the focus is all quad or a mix of glutes, hammy's and quads.
The in city stairs is sort of a combo strength and endurance work out as it's a set of ~300 stairs and maybe 180vert of climbing per set. Run up, run down, try to get in as many sets as possible in an hour. I alternate sets of 2 stairs or 1x at a time and to work up to 15 sets/hr which will put me in full crush mode for the season.
I would advise against using ankle weights- they will end up fucking up your hips. Weighted pack is okay but not so good for down the stairs as it put added stress on the knee joints.
Skinning pace is dependent mainly on your VO2 not muscle strength unless your hip flexors hurt so much you can't skin, or you completely fatigue leg muscles. If you get bad early season hip flexor pain, try putting a band around your feet and pulling one leg up, get your knee higher than your hip. Hold for an extended time 10s, or do reps of it. Probably take a month to have much of an effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301
Ankle weights are usually a bad idea, they have to be used carefully and sparingly.
That magic muscle to reduce muscle fatigue is your glutes. Most people are quad dominant and ignoring their biggest most powerful muscle. Change in skinning technique + glute work can reap huge benefits. If your quads are the only thing sore you are doing it wrong.
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Jane Fonda's are good for hip flexors and glut minimus. 30 seconds on each movement, each side, two rounds. Ankle weight if that's not enough burn. Bonus points for having the Mickey Avalon song on in the background.
Might toss some yoga in, tight hamstrings/quads won't add speed on the skintrack...
Do you have actual personal experience here or are you just speculating? I can't see it being any different/worse than actual skinning. Even with a light setup most people are dragging around close to 10 pounds on each foot. If you are rolling Dukes or MFD, burly boots and big freeride skis you could easily be pushing 20 lbs per foot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofro261
My long time primary health care doc fucked up both of his hips and needed complete double hip replacement at age 45 by repeatedly using ankle weights during hills and runs in his 20's/30's. Sure an N=1 from a medical professional telling me not to use them, but a quick search with the googles will bring up similar opinions. To be more clear- incorporating ankle weights in resistance/strength training- probably ok, in endurance training- bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
I personally don't lift my boot/binder/ski off of the surface while skinning- it's a slide/shuffle move which is much more effective at moving my whole weight up the hill instead of lifting that ski weight over and over in addition to moving up hill. And skinning in itself isn't all that nice on the hips/ hip flexors- pain in the hips almost side lined Greg Hill when he was going for his 2M vert.
I'm not big on machines, I'd rather exercise outdoors, but I think the elliptical machines seem to replicate skinning movements pretty well. Try different strength/friction settings.
Another good thing, mostly for aerobics, might be Nordic Trak. They're good for getting your aerobic conditioning level up.
--
Kicking cats is a commonly used technique for strengthening hip flexors.
Although I prefer kicking the elderly or indigents.
I do the same and it's the most efficient way to skin, but no matter how good you are at it if you climbed 3000 ft you lifted your boot/binder/ski that far with your hips. Conditions can sometimes also require a lot of foot lift (i.e. deep trail breaking, sastrugi). I can see how real long term use of ankle weights could cause problems if you are running with them or just using them as a silly way to burn more calories. But as focused, short-term preseason training for a hip-intensive activity that requires dragging weight around on your feet for hours I just don't see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofro261
I definitely notice the foot weight in my hips early season and nothing else that I have encountered works those muscles that way. Maybe biking with clipless pedals if you pull a lot on the upstroke, but it's still not really close.
Thanks for all the advice.
When I skin, I use my butt muscles to push off, then I think I use the hip flexors to slide the ski forward.
I don't get any pain, I was just hoping for the magical exercise that woul get me uphill faster.??
I believe the GSA does treadmill in full gear--pack, skis on the pack, helmet, the whole deal. You might try contacting him.
Anyone who has ever toured with mofro.
Will just tell you to do what he does.
Yep the type with moving handles and ideally variable ramp work well. I do a intervals of steep lower resistance (concentrating on recovery and getting heart-rate down) and then flat on a very high resistance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan Rover
Ergometer also very good, you can really get your hip flexors burning.
Based on Kilian Jornet, the answer is running.
Be careful with your hip flexors, it's not all that difficult to overdevelop them which can cause really serious lower back pain. I've seen it a lot in people who do way to many crunches and engage their hip flexors the whole time. I'd stick to cardio and squats/lunges as those will get them in shape just fine.
the issue with ankle wts. and endurance training is likely more related to impact forces than it is the actual weight. At a slow jog you experience 3.5x your boy wt. with each foot fall at a run this might be 5-7x at a sprint/jump upwards to 10-12x. Combine that with the huge number of reps you experience during any type of endurance training and you are likely asking for trouble.
now there would be a difference in using ankle wt. for resistance for certain types of training and walking several miles or jogging with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
Yep this right here.
I spent two months back east last winter and didn't want to lose any conditioning I built up so far.
Came back west stronger and faster than before spending about an hour a day for three days a week with this routine and the cadence of the machine helped smooth out my technique.
C'mon. Nobody really tours with mofro. He either laps you or waits for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
^^^^ . This. ^^^^Quote:
Yep the type with moving handles and ideally variable ramp work well. I do a intervals of steep lower resistance (concentrating on recovery and getting heart-rate down) and then flat on a very high resistance.
Ergometer also very good, you can really get your hip flexors burning.
Several of the strongest skinners I know traditionally prep for the season by racing cyclocross for a few months.
Late to the game here, but my $0.02...
I think overall core strength makes a huge difference, so I do a lot of core exercises, P90X style. Core strength targets all of those connecting muscles down to hip flexors, and seems to have made a huge difference in my stamina and speed in the three days I've been out touring this year.
Another thing that has dramatically improved strength and endurance for me has been barefoot running. It's a beast unto itself and will take most people a year or more to really do right (but because of a congenital condition is the only way I can run pain free, so I'm forced into it). Once I started doing that several years ago it translated extremely well to touring. Barefooting makes you use so many more muscles, it's ridiculous. It has made me MUCH stronger when it comes to touring.
And, of course, yoga, always yoga.
^^^ disagree with core strength having much to do with it unless you are so weak that you are constantly off balance and catching yourself. Core is there to stabilize. I think your running has a lot more to do with it.
Not sure how barefoot would be better than shoes running for skinning. I guess if you have a really flexible boot and get calf fatigue.
Skinning comes down mainly to VO2, muscular endurance, and technique. The truth is that good overall / whole body training is the answer to preparing for any activity. Concentrating on one muscle group or movement leads to problems.
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This. Pretty sure just doing wall sits isn't going to help all that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by neufox47
You might be right about the core, I guess I've just lumped it all in with general fitness. I still think it matters though to some extent, everything is connected. Barefooting does work the calves a hell of a lot more, but it also seems to work the quads, hip flexors, and in a weird way obliques and lower core/back more too, you can't relax and get sloppy when going downhill and a lot of that translates into hitting the quad pretty good.
Although, the running for sure is what's helping with VO2 and endurance, I'm at 7k feet and hill climbs still kick my ass, but really help with touring :biggrin: Plus, every year my technique becomes just a bit more refined.