Know your partners

Do you trust they with your life? You should. I get a rash of shit for only skiing with select people and calling others out for sub-par safety skills. While I may earn a reputation as a dick, I'm comfortable with it. It may save my life. Here's a story of an competent party saving one of there own. Could your crew do the same?

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A full burial occurred on Red Mountain Pass yesterday morning, on a W aspect at 11900' off Red 3. On his sixth turn, a skier triggered a 3' deep, 450' wide avalanche that ran 600' vertical (SS-AS-R3-D2.5-O). He was caught and buried several feet deep. His party had him out 7 minutes, with only minor injuries. Here's to a competent party and a happy ending.

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Werd and werd. I tend to travel with the same group and know everyone's avy savvy, skiing skills and quirks. I wouldn't have it any other way, unless I was traveling with Foggy, of course.

This is 1 of the most important things to think about when dealing with the mountains.....

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

Do you trust they with your life? You should. I get a rash of shit for only skiing with select people and calling others out for sub-par safety skills. While I may earn a reputation as a dick, I'm comfortable with it. It may save my life. Here's a story of an competent party saving one of there own. Could your crew do the same?

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Could your party stay the fuck out of the slide in the first place?

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Originally Posted by cj001f

Could your party stay the fuck out of the slide in the first place?

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If this questions is directed at me, then the answer is yes. More generally, it brings up one of what I believe is one of the failures in judgments I see all the time. Of course, safe backcountry travel relies on avoiding avalanches all together. Your decision to ski a particular slope or ascend a certain route should not be dependant to your rescue gear or skills. That being said, I make sure my partners posses excellent route finding and travel protocol skills AS WELL AS excellent beacon/rescue skills. Do you place less importance on the rescue skills because you are “staying the fuck out of the slide in the first place”? I’m not enough of an optimist to believe that I can 100% guarantee I’ll never be involved in a rescue situation.

It wasn't directed at you - we have similar beliefs in the value of avoidance. Rescue skills (the whole package, including first aid) are important - but avoidance is key.

10-4. The most troubling part is those that think they can go anywhere because they are beeping generally have pretty weak beacon and rescue skills. I'm honestly surprised that we don't hear of more deaths where the victim was not saved simply because of the incompetence of the rescuers.

This subject of partners has got to THE most important decisions in safety. Thank you for bringing it up.

Partners can be totally competent, but too bold at the same time. They can also be less knowledgeable, but safer than the bold person.

I weigh this heavily when skiing with people. Competency doesn't mean shit. The combination of competency and how you use it is the critical element in a long life.

couldn't agree more; thanks for putting this thought up Fogs. Funny, because I had a great discussion on this topic with one of my b/c pals just recently.

Good point Track. There are people I'd never go backcountry with, but not for lack of competence. Some of these are some of my favorite friends to rip around the ski area with. I am simply not comfortable with their decision making.

I used to have a partner that I climbed ice with, climbed big alpine faces in the Canadian rockies, skied the burliest shit we could find.

But we evolved to the point of incompatibility. His motto was essentially, "it's good to go". And no matter what you opinion was, he wouldn't sway.

I became uncomfortable with him and now no longer do anything but mellow days with him.

It sucks, because we raged for 8 years. It's difficult to find people like that. Ones you can climb, ski, whatever with.

Good partners are very valuable. And I'm happy to say, I've found a few good ones here.

Notably Stoy, APD, Gramps, Twoplanker, Powstash and many others.

Great topic Foggy

There is always going to be some difference in level of acceptable risk between two people of equal experience / skills. These differences can be very difficult to manage especially when summit fever sets in. In the past, I have been pushed beyond my level of acceptable risk and have also been guilty of pushing someone else beyond their LoAR. Neither of these experiences feel particularly good and can even tarnish a friendship.

As my experience increases, I've found that my LoAR hasn't really changed that much, but my willingness to have my LoAR pushed (or to push someone else's LoAR) has decreased. I think it has to do with the fact that good gnartners are really hard to find and it takes an investment in time (and minor tweaks to your style / systems) to reach a point where you are fully compatible and trust each other. So, once a good working gnartnership has been established, I don't want to jeopardize it by pushing LoARs.

As a side note, I've noticed that once you've accomplished a few objectives where you are both approaching (or maybe even slightly exceeding) your LoAR, and you've trusted each other with your life, a new level of friendship is achieved...not necessarily better, just different.

Trackhead, good point about the mindset compatability, a good quality of a a partner is someone who you get along with and sees eye to eye with you. This can only help to lead to clear level headed decision making on both parts. Arguments lead to anger, anger leads to hatred, hatred leads to poor decision making, poor decision making leads to.... the dark side.

Holy fuck. Good work but I don't like the odds of being able to repeat this success story.

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There were two close calls yesterday on Red Mountain Pass. Two skiers preparing to make their second run on a WNW aspect of Red #2 triggered a 250' wide avalanche that ran 700' vertical. Both were caught and fully buried. The third member of the party was lower on the slope, and found one of the skiers under 4-5' of debris. The skier then helped the third member locate and dig out the remaining skier, who had been buried 4-5' deep for 10+ minutes. All three were able to ski out under their own power. Hats off to another quick rescue! In a separate incident, a skier was partially buried in a slide (Size R3) on Bear Mountain.

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that one got the hair on my neck at attention. Nucking Futs.

Wow, three burials, two incidents, three rescues.

The second one is odd. "preparing to make their run" ? is there not a safe area there? Is everyone forced to be in an exposed area?
They are soo lucky the third guy wasnt there and buried with them.

Totally agree about partner selection and trust.
If its just me and you, I better know and trust your skills and knowledge.
That being said, if you have enough competent people (two, or ideally three) it is nice to take a BC newbie out in the right conditions and show them and teach them.
We all had to learn somewhere from someone.

- another reason for the avalung. ten minutes is a lot of time for no fresh air.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

we have similar beliefs in the value of avoidance. Rescue skills (the whole package, including first aid) are important - but avoidance is key.

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Avoidance definitely is the key. I know the incident first mentioned in this thread involved a very experienced party, I think one of the members of the party was a local avie forecaster. And it appears that those involved in the most recent accidents at Red Mountain Pass were more than competent in their rescue skills. I would be interested in some details on what their assessment of the conditions were yesterday/today. Based on the forecast it appeared that the conditions on the aspects they were skiing were less than ideal:

http://geosurvey.state.co.us/Avalanc...2120051505.jpg

http://geosurvey.state.co.us/Avalanc...2220051427.jpg

Good topic, but it frusterates me. I love bc skiing. I'm not very experienced, but I WANT to become experienced and knowlegable about how to approach the conditions, safety, rescues (if needed), etc. I've taken the 2-day class, I read avie books if I have a spare moment...so I have a base, but not enough experience in the field. I need the proper instructors to help me on my way to becoming the bc skier I want to be.

If you're too exclusive, then someone like me is left without the proper teachers. I'm fortunate enought to have Telenater and Legoskier as my teachers, however, if they didn't feel comfortable skiing with me because I wasn't the right partner for them, I'd be screwed.

So this poses the question - how exclusive are you going to be? Are you going to create your little club and not let anyone else experience your vast knowledge?

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Originally Posted by divegirl

So this poses the question - how exclusive are you going to be? Are you going to create your little club and not let anyone else experience your vast knowledge?

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I've learned plenty from others more experienced than me and I like to think I've done my fair share of teaching. To me, it is all about atitude. I like to keep the ratio of one newbie for each two experienced teachers. My ratioanal -- if I'm the lead, I want an experienced sweep. If you can demonstrate basic knowledge and are good at following directions, you are not endangering my safety. I'll have to ask Nate but I'm pretty sure you can be in my club.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

I like to keep the ratio of one newbie for each two experienced teachers. My ratioanal -- if I'm the lead, I want an experienced sweep.

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Exactly. In fact, if I have any doubts about my sweep, they can get fresh tracks. Its the young and fearless that always wanna go first. The older wiser ones pick their times and places.

Reminds me of an odd thing about JH resort guides. I have seen one guide out with several tourons. The guide goes first to show the route. Who digs out the guide if the slope taters??

[edit - actually I forgot that this season a guide was partially buried and hurt (North woods of Pinedale, I think) - there should really be two guides - lead and sweep]

Divegirl presents the connundrum of going one on one with a newbie in the backcoutnry.
1) do you trust the snowpack so much that you go first and risk being rescued by a newbie,
or 2) do you make the newbie go first and risk living with their blood on your hands.
Its not particularly comforting.

I have done it on rare occasions, and not in a while, but I usually go first, and act as if I am skiing solo without any backup, so it better be ultra bombproof.

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

Divegirl presents the connundrum of going one on one with a newbie in the backcoutnry.
1) do you trust the snowpack so much that you go first and risk being rescued by a newbie,
or 2) do you make the newbie go first and risk living with their blood on your hands.
Its not particularly comforting.

I have done it on rare occasions, and not in a while, but I usually go first, and act as if I am skiing solo without any backup, so it better be ultra bombproof.

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Slopes don't always rip out with the first skier it can be the 2nd, 3rd, 4th ....

The answer is just not to go alone with a newbie into avy terrain. You can expose them to all the ideas and techniques of skiing in avy terrain on lower angle slopes and slowly progress into avy terrain as they get more and more BC trips and miles under their belt.

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Originally Posted by Lurch

Slopes don't always rip out with the first skier it can be the 2nd, 3rd, 4th ....

The answer is just not to go alone with a newbie into avy terrain. You can expose them to all the ideas and techniques of skiing in avy terrain on lower angle slopes and slowly progress into avy terrain as they get more and more BC trips and miles under their belt.

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Obviously true, but the risk goes down substantially after the first rider.
I am talking about narrower chutes and shots where the snopack is stressed or cut by the first skier.
A huge open bowl is different - the thirtieth person can be skiing a fresh and risky line in that context.

I dont even go solo anymore, and solo guiding was a long time ago, but I understand what youare saying as a larger public message.

The few times that I've skied with Nater, he's always gone first. It's because he broke trail both times. (Granted, the trail wasn't too fresh, but it's courtesy). And frankly, being the newbie, I fully support him going first. I don't need an empty canvas, because we're usually skiing wide bowls.

We always discuss the weather, wind, and likely snowpack conditions beforehand, and I always make him stop and discuss the exact route we're going to take before ascent. Sometimes I'll disagree, and point out another route, but we'll always agree on the final decision.

Another point - who's to say the guy/girl with the most experience has any experience with rescue? A person could have dozens to hundreds of b.c. trips under their belt, but not once perform an actual rescue. The newbie would be just as concerned, in this case, as the most experienced guy with regards to who will be their rescuer.

DG is a fine second. While I haven't seen her do a beacon search, her recent class makes me as confident of her ability to locate me as I am of my ability to locate her. I haven't practiced more than a few times since the beginning of the season, but at least in practice sessions, I had reasonably good search times.

DG is also able to discuss the snowpack and our observations intelligently and in an educated manner.

DG and I have also not been out yet at a time/place when I believed that avy activity was likely. Frequently I've dropped first because there was a specific location that I wanted to get to, and sometimes I've dropped first, found a safe spot and tried to shoot photos as she skied past and on down the mountain. I'm not an untracked slope fetishist, but I do think that if someone has done the majority of the trailbreaking (particularly in pow) they should have dibbs on first tracks should they wish it.

The last point is that, DG is still developing her skinning skills. I frequently like a direct (steep) skin track. DG is still refining her ability to weight skis for climbing steep and kickturns, but that'll come with practice.