Working with group dynamics

I am going on a hut trip at the end of the month and I have some concerns about the group I am going with. My primary concern is that most of the folks going are either more avy/bc experienced and cavalier than I am, or very inexperienced and the more cavalier dudes aren't at all concerned with that. I am not an avy expert nor am I the most experienced dude out there, but I want to use my knowledge to effect the overall awareness and safety of the group - without being the nag or getting shut up by the more "alpha" members of the group.
Suggestions?
Some ideas I have are to make sure the less experienced group members are familiar with equipment operation and do a little playing with it before we go. I also plan to rally some games of beacon hide and seek. I also have the avy dvds from the forest service and at the end of High Life that I will show to folks. I went last year and it was a smaller group with only one member who didn't know jack, plus the conditions were very firm spring corn.
Additionally, this is an annual trip for about half the group (the more experienced half) and there is a mix of stories from past years that stink of bad judgement, and some that suggest sound thinking. In years past the group has always gone to the same hut, but this year we are headed to a hut in a different basin, so the terrain is not going to be familiar to any of us. On top of that, all of our avy training has been in the heavy cascades snowpack and this trip will be out in the Wallowas near Idaho.

Any recommendations?

i don't mean to scare you but that whole situation you've described is a prescription for big problems. group dynamics and human factors are the biggest variables with regarde to safe trave, imo. my only experience with these type of groups have come in avy classes and it is always a situation that i would never want to repeat. ask a few instructors about that one.

i personally draw the line at touring with a party of more than 4. on a hut trip that can be somewhat unavoidable. you may suggest breaking the group into two smaller touring parties based on abilities. i don't mean newbies vs. experienced but two groups that have similar ideals that can get along have a better chance of developing a sound group. if there is ever a time when i don't feel comfortable expresing my opinions or consequently i feel like i am repressing somebody's, it's time to re-evaluate the group. right there i know that i am in over my head and depending on how far into the tour, i'll either call it a day or have a group conversation.


this is a very important topic that should be discussed from multiple points of view. i will x-post this over at t-tips so we can get some discussion. the slide zone doesn't always get too many views.

There must be an understanding among group members that one person's no go vote is the final say regardless of the reason (snowpack, weather, etc).

Last week I was out with some beginner intermediate telemark skiers. We determined a slope was safe from a snow safety standpoint. However, one of the telemark skiers was not comfortable with the difficulty of the terrain (and this was an easy 25deg open powder slope). I was pissed but if they don't feel they can handle it, you turn around and ski something easier. I didn't like it at all but I was the first to say "well then we don't ski it."

Don't have to like it... just have to do it.

Be carefull. Never underestimate the pressures (not necissarily on you).

I agree with APD

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Originally Posted by AltaPowderDaze

i don't mean to scare you but that whole situation you've described is a prescription for big problems. group dynamics and human factors are the biggest variables with regarde to safe trave, imo.

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This was the response I expected, and I concur. Not nearly an ideal situation, so do I save myself by not going and let me friends and the others risk it for themselves - or do I go along, keeping myself in situations where I feel comfortable and safe, and try to keep the group safe and the decisions smart? I have enough self esteem to keep from being sucked into a bad situation and I will have my senses peaked on this trip since I am aware of some of the potential threats to good judgement. What I'd especially like help with is suggestions regarding how to make group communication work better and to keep everyones heads in the right place. The newbies shouldn't be lulled into false security or feel pressured in bad situations, and the more experienced shouldn't be in denial about the limits of the group or the dangers of the situation.

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Originally Posted by AltaPowderDaze

you may suggest breaking the group into two smaller touring parties based on abilities. i don't mean newbies vs. experienced but two groups that have similar ideals that can get along have a better chance of developing a sound group. if there is ever a time when i don't feel comfortable expresing my opinions or consequently i feel like i am repressing somebody's, it's time to re-evaluate the group. right there i know that i am in over my head and depending on how far into the tour, i'll either call it a day or have a group conversation.

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These are good suggestions. Thanks and keep them coming.

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Originally Posted by AltaPowderDaze

this is a very important topic that should be discussed from multiple points of view. i will x-post this over at t-tips so we can get some discussion. the slide zone doesn't always get too many views.

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I am interested to hear other's perspectives or reports from situations folks have been in. Not just the "scared straight" kinds of stories, but any fine tuning or little adjustments that people have made in group dynamics that have paid off in safety or communication gains. Summit's post is a good example.

I really appreciate this forum and anyone taking the time to give a thoughtful response.

I've had several situations where a large group (more than 6) were split on either direction to go or a slope to ski. In one case, I didn't feel comfortable going out onto a slope, so I (anda couple of others) turned around and skied a mellower slope, while the rest of the group went on. The slope we skied could have triggered a slide remotely, so we skied first, without incident, went to a safe zone and waited for the rest of the group. It worked out well and everything went smoothly.

I had a nother time when there was a lone desenter who got bullied by others in the group to ski what they wanted to ski. It got pretty nasty. I was in the middle becasue I knew both parties, but they didn't really know each other. It was uncomfortable for me. I ended up turning around with the signle guy and we skied down a different area. We met up at the road and the arguing continued. I decided that I wouldn't tour with anyone o nthat particular tour again.

Ive learned that on trips with groups of varying experience and attitudes it is best to have a partner that thinks like you do. That way if group think pushes people to be either more or less aggressive than you are comfortable with, then you and said partner can strike out on your own. You only need 2 people to create a backcountry team.
At the hut as the conversation centers around terrain selection for tomorrow be involved, but be ready for all those plans to be tossed out the window when you are skinning to your objective. Are you sound in your logic? If so, screw em, grab a partner, and hit your objective.

Study the maps.
Seek out photos.
Learn as much about the terrain prior to going as you can.

Heck, i dragged Foggy Goggles far too far for too few a turns this weekend, but i also got to scope some of the terrain available from the yurt I will be at in a few weeks, so mission accomplished.

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Originally Posted by Summit

There must be an understanding among group members that one person's no go vote is the final say regardless of the reason (snowpack, weather, etc).

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Definitely true, but be aware that this is often agreed upon but quite often not executed. Be wary of someone coaxing you to do anything at all that's against your instinct or judgement. Props to Summit for the discipline demonstrated...it's frustrating but a) newb tele dude had a better time for it b) and he learned first hand how important and vital discipline is because he benefited from it.

Plat--Be careful, holmes. Sounds like a recipe for disaster, though it probably won't play out that way. It's your ass so be as staunch as you have to be, you know? The bottom line is the truth: If someone doesn't know the levity of traveling in avy terrain and doesn't respect it enough to be educated, they don't belong there and you definitely don't belong with them. :nonono2:

this is what i got from t-tips: