Tuckerman Ravine in early April

I wanted to get the scoop on avalanches in Tuckerman Ravine. I'm heading back East over Easter Weekend and some friends are discussing a trip to Tuckerman. I understand that the area is often skied in the spring by people with zero avalanche knowledge and no avi gear. With the bulk of my backcountry experience in Coastal BC, this sounds like a recipe for disaster at first glance. Knowing little about the snowpack that generally forms there and how the seasons usually work (i.e. when the melt-freeze cycle usually starts), I wanted to get a sense of the risk involved so that I can make an informed decision on whether to put my life in the hands of my somewhat inexperienced friends.

Tuckerman Ravine and Mount Washington in general are the real deal with rapidly changing and nasty weather. Although the area is frequented by folks who aren't avalanche savvy, this usually occurs in late spring and early summer when the snowpack is stable and starting to melt away. The place can be a real circus on a sunny saturday afternoon in the late spring! For winter travelers, you're taking your life in your own hands up there if you don't know what you're doing.

There is excellent forecasting from the Mt. Washington Avalanche center: http://www.mountwashingtonavalanchecenter.org/index.php
These guys take a look around up there almost every day and keep track of layers in the snowpack and such as the season progresses. The avalanche forecasting team is a really great asset to have here on the east coast!

-Mitch

What Tick said. Generally once our snowpack goes into freeze thaw mode, things go down to low low. There of course are exceptions. The most dangerous thing up there in April are the hoards of gapers that will be tumbling down and doing generally dumb things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW_ekQSiPTA
The forecast was High on that day if my memory serves me right. Yes, that is a guy with a plastic snow sled. I've seen people send the Lip on a kids snow sled.

Some articles courtesy of Jonathan S
The Importance of Micro-Scale Avalanche Forecasting in Mount Washington’s Tuckerman and Huntington Ravines
http://app4.websitetonight.com/proje...orecasting.pdf

Springtime Avalanches Don't Happen Here - Or Do They? A Nearly Deadly Avalanche in New Hampshire's Presidential Range,
http://app4.websitetonight.com/proje...tz_article.pdf

Most people who frequent Mount Washington take early runs before the crowds then go find another ravine to ski. Some return later in the day to watch the mayham. Be prepared to see some of the dumbest behavior you have ever witnessed in the backcountry if its a warm April Saturday.

The avy bulletin is excellent. They forecast each line when necessary. You won't find this level of detailed forecasting for a public avy bulletin anywhere else. Also check out Timefortuckerman.org. PM if you want more details...

I just think it is awesome that there are three posts in this thread and no one has yet called it "Tuckermans" Ravine. Kudos to D(C) for getting it right.

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Originally Posted by neufox47

The forecast was High on that day if my memory serves me right.

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I was just about to post that same video!
Which was one of three avalanches that day. All on the same aspect. All right next to one another. You can even see one of the other crowns in the looker's right of that video.

As a westerner visiting Tux that time of year, depending on conditions I suspect that the OP will be either:
- Really impressed (and grateful) at how a springtime melt-freeze snowpack can be pretty much immune from typical late-day wet slide concerns.
- Utterly terrified at thousands (yes, literally thousands) of skiers violating pretty much every snow safety protocol amidst elevated winter-type avy danger.

Fortunately, as noted earlier, we have an excellent forecasting center. Moreover, what might not be apparent from the recently revamped website is that snow rangers are stationed right there at treeline, so even if they're not out on the porch of the public shelter, you can walk right over to their cabin and ask questions.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan S.

- Really impressed (and grateful) at how a springtime melt-freeze snowpack can be pretty much immune from typical late-day wet slide concerns.

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or mank out. i've skied all over at one time or another, and i know you have too jonathan (pnw), but there isn't ANYWHERE that i've sked where to corn skiing is as good or consistent all day at all elevations in the hot sun as what we get served in the high prezzies for months on end. i can remember one april where it was sunny almost every day with no refreeze at night and the corn was perfect and supportive the whole month. some folks hate all of the high winds, rain to deep freeze events, freezing rain, sleet, but man does it give us some amazing all season compaction for the warm months. in the warm months the sun is strong, but hardly ever too strong. love that.

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- Utterly terrified at thousands (yes, literally thousands) of skiers violating pretty much every snow safety protocol amidst elevated winter-type avy danger.

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april is for skiing at sugarloaf. less people, killer terrain/bumps, chair lifts, better partying.

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Fortunately, as noted earlier, we have an excellent forecasting center. Moreover, what might not be apparent from the recently revamped website is that snow rangers are stationed right there at treeline, so even if they're not out on the porch of the public shelter, you can walk right over to their cabin and ask questions.

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yup, the oldest and longest running avalanche center in the country. we are very lucky to have those guys up there. simple straightforward advisories as well.

hi jonathan!:biggrin:

rog

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Originally Posted by Jonathan S.

- Really impressed (and grateful) at how a springtime melt-freeze snowpack can be pretty much immune from typical late-day wet slide concerns.

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Can you elaborate on how this is possible? What's different there that mitigates wet slide concerns?

Thanks all, great info so far.

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Originally Posted by icelanticskier

or mank out. i've skied all over at one time or another, and i know you have too jonathan (pnw), but there isn't ANYWHERE that i've sked where to corn skiing is as good or consistent all day at all elevations in the hot sun as what we get served in the high prezzies for months on end.

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Very true -- although I love the Sierra spring and PNW summer corn, pretty much any big descent out there eventually ends up in some deep mank at some elevation. By contrast, the various Presidentials ravines hardly ever have manky snow.

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Originally Posted by icelanticskier

hi jonathan!:biggrin:

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Attachment 111764

Micayla says Hi back at ya'! (Well, when she isn't focusing on her bottle instead of the skiing this afternoon behind our house...)

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Originally Posted by D(C)

Can you elaborate on how this is possible? What's different there that mitigates wet slide concerns?

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It's our arctic maritime avalanche climate combined with the Presidentials topography. Only ~250" of annual snowfall, but the frequent hurricane-force winds strip the snow off of massive fetch zones (basically flat ridgelines spiraling off from Mt Washington, with an occasional slightly higher bump along the various ridgelines that the USGS deems worthy of designating a separate "mountain"), loading up numerous steep couloirs in numerous glacial cirques. So anything skiable is steep and wind loaded, which complicates safe winter routefinding, but makes a dense springtime snowpack that typically neither manks up nor slides.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan S.

Attachment 111764

Micayla says Hi back at ya'! (Well, when she isn't focusing on her bottle instead of the skiing this afternoon behind our house...)

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omg, such a cutie. thanx for the pic. give'r a hug for me!

is the road open yet? ski ya in the hallway jonathan!

rog

Ya know, there is definitely a difference between east coast spring corn and western spring corn. Not sure whether that means total immunity to the avalanche gods, but it is definitely different (probably has something to do with overall humidity or the fact that it's usually ice turning back into something loose and granular). When east coast corn gets wet, it's still fun, fast and supportive...unlike western corn which gets grabby and sticky and unpredictable. I dunno, it's weird...out here in Utah, i feel like the spring corn is still good, but the window of opportunity for sweet corn skiing is much narrower.

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Originally Posted by ski_adk

I dunno, it's weird...out here in Utah, i feel like the spring corn is still good, but the window of opportunity for sweet corn skiing is much narrower.

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SORRY, UTAH AND CORN SHOULDN'T BE USED IN THE SAME SENTENCE.:biggrin:

talk about narrow. blink of an eye narrow oftentimes. like start out on firm quasi corn for the first few hundred ft o vert, to amazing supportable (for about 5 minutes) corn for the next 500 vert, to absolute shit rollerball mankfest for the last 500-1000 vert.....................at 930am..................south facing......................after a good refreeze...............................in april.................................better get over to the bird quickly!

best corn cycles i've ever skied in utah were actually in mid winter during mega high pressure periods with above average daytime temps. se facing gobblers, se facing raymonds shoulder, east facing days, most of upper snake creek.

come middle-ish april in utah i would dream of being back home on george.................so i'd leave.

rog

on the volcanoes we can ride 5,000' verticle of corn in one run from april thru october, otherwise it's about riding new snow november thru march.
bobby

FU Alpy :)

East Coast spring from yesterday. Get it while you can

Attachment 111829

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Originally Posted by flowing alpy

on the volcanoes we can ride 5,000' verticle of corn in one run from april thru october, otherwise it's about riding new snow november thru march.
bobby

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ya, but in that 5k yer skiing yer starting out on firm loud crap for up to a k, followed by beaut corn for maybe 2k followed by unsupportable mank shit for the rest/exit.

on george we can ski 4300 vert from summit to car on perfect corn in nthe hot sun all day everyday for a good stretch of time till it's beach time. plus in spring we can lap 2 k of above treeline all day and never have to time stuff or get off it once it's cooking. 2k is plenty for lapping imo.

rog

What about beacon/probe/shovel. Overkill once the snowpack enters melt-freeze?

(Sorry for the seemingly basic questions. It seems that things happen a bit differently out here and I really want to make sure all my bases are covered)

The way this season is going, you can leave it at home. I bring it every weekend, then make the decision that morning. I'm reluctant to ever say leave it at home, but yeah, if the forecast is low and has been low, you can leave it at home IMO.

Like "neufox47" says, on plenty of days, bringing avy rescue gear to Tux is not just overkill, but pretty much just as downright silly and pointless as bringing avy rescue gear to your indoor job in, say, a warehouse protected by a big steel door and . . . hmm, well, in light of recent video postings, let's use a different workplace setting!

But also like he says, be sure to check out the bulletin that morning (or the morning weather forecast with summit obs data, which is updated very early in the morning, as opposed to the avy bulletin, which might not be available until after you're already heading up the trail), then make your decision (i.e., as opposed to on the day before). Also note that the base of Tux (as well as Huntington & GoS) has rescue caches with probes, shovels, and sleds. (Plus the USFS snow rangers and volunteer ski patrollers will have beacons, probes, shovels.)

Plus keep in mind that even if you start off planning only on Tux, three other ravines with potentially different conditions are very easy to access after topping out of Tux.

This also reminds me of variations of the following conversation I've had with various partners over the years before late-spring and early-summer tours:
He- "Do you think we should bring avy rescue gear?"
Me- "Yes."
He- "So . . . you think our route might have avy danger?"
Me- "No."
He- "Then why should we bring avy rescue gear?!?"
Me- "In case I'm wrong."

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Originally Posted by neufox47

The way this season is going, you can leave it at home. I bring it every weekend, then make the decision that morning. I'm reluctant to ever say leave it at home, but yeah, if the forecast is low and has been low, you can leave it at home IMO.

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skied up there today and glad i had my gear. duchess and dodges were loaded with fairly deep no bottom dense-ish pow that skied amazingly well. can't friggin believe that no one skied either of those two classics over the weekend. i would put those two runs at a solid moderate today. jeff lane, the snow ranger with binocs from hojos watched me enter and ski cut the top of dodges skiers right enterance and saw that i kept pulling off to the right below every boulder to let some pretty large sluff go by. amazing skiing down 1400 vert at 40-45 degree pitch on dry pow snow. twas glued in fairly well, but definitely not "low". duchess was boot top deep at least, but not sluffing so badly. my buddy was pretty gripped:eek::biggrin:

hillmans skied well too.

rog