Kids Beacon

I like the ~$100 Pieps Backup transmit-only device for the purpose of strapping on my kids for the unlikely event...

This device seems like a good place to save some money. Upgrade to a transceiver when the time is right.

For $100 my kids can be located and that gives us all peace of mind. I doubt that even with prep that a kid will be useful w/a receiver given the chaos & confusion of the moment. It's just too much to expect that groms will calmly walk a grid and work the flux lines, even if they train. Nonetheless I am planning on avalungs shovels & probes all around.

What do you have on your kid?

Q) Is the Backup digital? I cannot find that.
A) Yes it has a digital antenna. So that makes it better than the obsolete F1.

So then if your buddy get buried, you would have the kid turn their transmit-only off while doing the search? How does that work, do you have to turn a hard switch or is there a soft button to temporarily stop transmitting?

it seems to be a clever design that checks first for a nearby beacon transmitting (it is a "backup" for your beacon) and then if it's moving. it only xmits if its on, stationary and no nearby xmit signal. cannot interfere w/a search.

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Originally Posted by anemic

I like the ~$100 Pieps Backup transmit-only device for the purpose of strapping on my kids for the unlikely event...

This device seems like a good place to save some money. Upgrade to a transceiver when the time is right.

For $100 my kids can be located and that gives us all peace of mind. I doubt that even with prep that a kid will be useful w/a receiver given the chaos & confusion of the moment. It's just too much to expect that groms will calmly walk a grid and work the flux lines, even if they train. Nonetheless I am planning on avalungs shovels & probes all around.

What do you have on your kid?

Q) Is the Backup digital? I cannot find that.
A) Yes it has a digital antenna. So that makes it better than the obsolete F1.

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How young of kids are you talking about? I have trained kids as young as 10.

the kid's not going with me until he can dig me out
so no beacon


(i've done beacon games with him, and now i know he could actually find me if he had to)

How is a transmit only beacon digital? The digital functions all involve signal processing in receive mode. But it is still better than an old F1, because they have almost all drifted off frequency at this point.

Little kids ace modern beacons pretty much immediately. Devices are ingrained in their dna. They just watch the gizmo and go straight to the target. They don't freak out like we do, because they don't fully grasp the consequences and stakes of a burial. But they shouldn't have to, they're just kids. Which is why they must be protected from avalanches. A beacon won't do that. What you need is a avalanche detector. PM Rontele.

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Originally Posted by anemic

it seems to be a clever design that checks first for a nearby beacon transmitting (it is a "backup" for your beacon) and then if it's moving. it only xmits if its on, stationary and no nearby xmit signal. cannot interfere w/a search.

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This design seems wonky. How far is "nearby"? So it just turns off on it's own? wha? just curious...I probably just need to play with one.

However, I don't see why you wouldn't just spring the extra 50 bucks and get a used tracker.

*for details on the Pieps Backup & how it works, refer to a website for the product which will explain it's functions & purpose better than I can
*we are talking about ages 11 & 13. You raise a great point that my kids typically show ME how MY stuff runs and show me all the little hidden tips & tricks so they could figure out how to run a beacon more quickly than I could
*I would jump on a $150 digital beacon but I have not actually stumbled upon this miracle. I'll do a better job at reviewing gear swap for it. I would totally prefer that, but I don't recall seeing this magic $150 used beacon. Good to know they are out there.
*Regarding digital or analog transmit, I don't know how these things work but I wanted to avoid the caution with the analog F1 that it can't reliably be found by many modern digitals. So I researched if the Backup may have the same problem, and it appears not to be a problem. Again, I have almost no beacon experience, so I cannot speak to this topic with any experience.

I think age is an important factor. My kids (12 year old twins) ski with the 3+ beacon when we are skiing in-bounds powder. They have not begun to venture out with me into the backcountry.

I think putting kids in beacons during in-bounds powder days make sense with all of the post control releases we have seen in the last couple of years. I also believe you have to make good decisions in-bounds and keep your avi eyes on.

My kids pickup how to use a beacon faster then most adults;however, I do not believe they could complete a rescue in the field. It is one thing to find a beacon during beacon practice; however, it is another to do this in the field after a slide, probe, and dig a partner out. I would not expect my kids to be able to complete this currently.

I do believe puttting them in beacons and beginning the training is the right process. I also believe you have to talk to them about decision making early in the hopes of preventing accidents such as the one at Vail last week. I could only imagine my kids friends, without andy knowledge, trying to convince my kids into ducking a rope and skiing an untracked powder slope. I would hope my kids have enough maturity and experience to say no and guide their friends into better choices.

Not recommended.

The Pieps backup device is ONLY meant as a backup device to be carried on the SAME person carrying a primary transceiver. The purpose is to implement the "revert to send" feature in case of a secondary avalanche. Other manufacturers implement this usually by a fixed/configurable delay and newer models usullay also using motion detection. Apparently Pieps thinks this is a bad idea, and has launched the Backup device.

By nearby where talking 50cm.

I wouldn't bring my kids into avalanche terrain before they actually can handle a transceiver. You may of course do otherwise, but get them a proper transceiver. In that case, I guess the Pieps freeride is the cheapest out there (though probably most difficult to actually search with), though it's probably easy to get a decent digital beacon second-hand as well.

I have been bringing my kid into the bc since he was 6. He started with a Tracker and was able to use it on the first beacon search. As others have said, kids just get the technology, practice searches are always fun. Watch Craigslist, or put something on gear swap, there are a lot of old Trackers around.

I wasn't counting on my kid digging my body out, I was counting on him learning how to safely travel and ski in the backcountry. The more you can take kids out, the better. Hopefully by the time they can go out without you, training can help offset testosterone.

Isn't this what those Recco jackets do? Except it doesn't run out of batteries since it's a passive device. Why not just get them a jacket with it built in?

when I was 10 I coulda rescued someone from an avalanche, seems like all I ever did was dig in snow berms and the like all winter

would I trust a 10 yo as my sole BC partner, hell no! but they could be super useful

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Originally Posted by angrysasquatch

Isn't this what those Recco jackets do? Except it doesn't run out of batteries since it's a passive device. Why not just get them a jacket with it built in?

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And how long will it take to get the RECCO unit to the site where your kid is burried? I know I am not waiting that long. In addtion, a beacon is much more efficient than a RECCO unit.

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Originally Posted by srface_hoar

And how long will it take to get the RECCO unit to the site where your kid is burried? I know I am not waiting that long. In addtion, a beacon is much more efficient than a RECCO unit.

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I don't know how it works where you are, but at my mountain, there is a ski patroller in the hut at the top of every chair, and there's a RECCO unit close by. He could be pretty much anywhere within 2 minutes, with the rest of the troops close behind. I am pretty certain that patrol (with their huge manpower, and being highly trained and very professional) could get somebody out who had a RECCO a whole lot faster than a 4-man party in the BC with full avy equipment.

Any way you look at it, in-bounds avy fatalities are very, very bad for business, and ski resorts make a huge effort to stop it. Do what you like, but you're much more likely to be killed driving to the resort.

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Originally Posted by angrysasquatch

I don't know how it works where you are, but at my mountain, there is a ski patroller in the hut at the top of every chair, and there's a RECCO unit close by. He could be pretty much anywhere within 2 minutes, with the rest of the troops close behind. I am pretty certain that patrol (with their huge manpower, and being highly trained and very professional) could get somebody out who had a RECCO a whole lot faster than a 4-man party in the BC with full avy equipment.

Any way you look at it, in-bounds avy fatalities are very, very bad for business, and ski resorts make a huge effort to stop it. Do what you like, but you're much more likely to be killed driving to the resort.

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You make some very good points; however, getting the RECCO unit to the site in 2 minutes is a little unrealistic. I could see this in a large Avi seen by everyone. Statistics have shone, the best chance for survival is by a rescue from the witnessing party. Many slide in the Western U.S. occur in trees or ridgelines that are not visible by patrol. By the time the word get out to the patrol and they arrive, at least 15-20mins will have already passed.

I have been using RECCO units for 8 year now and was responsible for obtaining this years RECCO model (now comes with a 457khz function) on our hill. While the RECCO units do work, they are not nearly as effective as a beacon. Correct me if I am wrong, there has not been a live recovery in the U.S. from the use of the RECCO. With that being said, if just one live recovery occurs, the unit is worth it.

I know if I have my choice between using a beacon to find someone or RECCO unit, I will choose the Beacon 100% of the time. Fortunetly for me, I do have the choice and my kids will be skiing in beacons and will continue to practice and learn how to use their beacons. I will also continue with their Avi Education at a slow and methodical pace in my attempt to ensure they do not go out on their own attempting to make decision about slopes prematurely.

As a parent, I could see kids skiing together and being influenced by their friends to go ski a closed slope with fresh untracked powder. My only hope is that my kids have enough knowledge throughout the years to be able to say to their friends "hey, thats not a good idea. The snowpack is really unstable right now and the ski patrol closed this for a reason".

In my 16 years of teaching Avi classes, I have seen many adults go out after a Level 1 class and make dumb decisions based upon their preceived new found knowledge. I have struggled with this over the years and the only method I have come up with is a slow approach to learning. Unfortunelty some will just not get it.

I hear what you are saying about the RECCO units being available and another tool for patrols to use in the attempt to deal with unexpected slides. I think the RECCO unit has its place, but also has its limitations. It is the best option for the typical resort skier who does not own a beacon and therefor will not be wearing one in those rare inbound or sidecountry slides.

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Originally Posted by anemic

This device seems like a good place to save some money. Upgrade to a transceiver when the time is right.

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So you'll save some $ in the short run, in exchange for having partners who are unable to participate in a search. (And since when is avalanche rescue so difficult that 11 and 13 yo kids can't be competent after some practice?) And then when you eventually buy them beacons, you'll have to find a buyer in the very limited market for the transmit-only devices you bought.

In re-reading my posts regarding the use of a RECCO unit, I believe I was not clear in my overall thoughts regarding RECCO and I wanted to make sure I cleared the air.

RECCO is a great devise and the reflectors should really be used by everyone with the exception of ski patrollers (would potentially interfere with searches). There is no reason that I can think of why you should not wear a beacon and a RECCO reflector. The new RECCO units have the ability to perform both a RECCO search as well as a 457khz search. In addition, a witnessing party doing a typical companion search could use a beacon.

I wanted to clear this up, as I feel RECCO provides a great service to the skiing and snowboarding community. They provide free dectors to ski resorts and the overall ski industry has begun placing the reflectors in all kinds of equipment. I do not feel the RECCO reflectors are a replacement to a beacon; however, I do feel they are another tool to possibly save a life.

On another note, RECCO could certainly be a great tool for treewell immersions. If a reporting party can get a RECCO unit to the area, a quick search can be performed to get a hit on a victim who has fallen in a treewell. This is an area where a RECCO unit may actually be the tool of choice.

Bottom line, if you are skiing in Avi terrain or your kids are, why not get them a beacon and train them on its use and put them in clothing or equipment that has a RECCO reflector. Best of both worlds.

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Originally Posted by srface_hoar

Correct me if I am wrong, there has not been a live recovery in the U.S. from the use of the RECCO.

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That's one helluva sobering statistic. Although, I suppose the avy deaths that are in-bounds (and therefore within intended deployment range of a RECCO) must be really damn low in the first place.

Regarding the tree well aspect, how much range do those things have?

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Originally Posted by angrysasquatch

Regarding the tree well aspect, how much range do those things have?

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The range on RECCO units are pretty good; however, the real advantage in this situation is that it is directional. This allows you to scan an area with a well trained user, attempting to get a hit. The hit could be on a RECCO reflector giving you the longest range, or it could be a hit on the beacon using the 457khz mode. You could even get hits on other electronic devices (phones, go-pros, ipods, etc...)

While there has not yet been a live recovery, keep in mind, there really has not been many in-bound Avalanches accross the U.S. On top of that, the U.S. has a higher rate of Avi fatalities due to trauma then Europe because most of the terrain is at or near treeline.

The RECCO reflector is not a replacement for a beacon, it is really an addition to a beacon. And for the majority resort skiers, it may be their best tool. Many times they might not even know they have on in their clothes or equipment.

I always thought of recco as a recovery device, mainly because, by the time the pro with the search unit shows up, your 15-30min window is up.

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Originally Posted by acinpdx

I always thought of recco as a recovery device, mainly because, by the time the pro with the search unit shows up, your 15-30min window is up.

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Au contraire. So if I read your comment correctly, you're giving up since your buddy has been buried for more than 15-30 minutes. Statistics tell that at 30 minutes 50% survive. Then drops to about 1 in 3 by 35 minutes. Even at 2 hours about 1 in 5 victims survive (Brugger et al., 2001). After 2 hours survival drops again, but a few very lucky victims do survive for hours under the snow. In the US in the last 10 years we have even had a couple of people survive burials of 23 and 24 hours. It's very important that the "pros" are notified quickly so they can show up and help. They have the tools -- RECCO and avi dogs -- to search quickly, manpower to shovel and move snow, provide advanced emergency medical care, and can transport an injured buddy way faster than can a few friends.

My name is Dale Atkins and I work for RECCO, so before anyone jumps in and declares I am only a "homer" and cannot be trusted, let me give a quick bio. I spent 19 years as an avi forecaster/researcher for the state of Colorado. Currently, I am president of the American Avalanche Association and vice president of the Avalanche Rescue Commission of the International Commission for Alpine Rescue. Along the way I pro ski patrolled for 20 years and have started my 5th decade of mountain rescue. I have dug out a lot bodies; I have seen exposed bones on fingertips (more than once) from people who have scrapped and clawed because they lived for a long time under the snow, but we as rescuers didn’t have technology to find them soon enough. I just found out about this thread. Generally, I don’t step into these frays, but when wrong things are said or faulty opinions get stated as fact, I’ll jump in.

Avalanche rescue devices find people. The sad truth is that avalanche rescue locating devices are more often than not, recovery devices. More buried people with transceivers die than are found alive. In the US the last live victim found by an avalanche rescue dog was back in 1994. (There is some debate about a dog find in 2010, but that victim was not totally buried; he even called out for help on his cell phone.) Correct, RECCO has not yet had a live recovery in North America, but we do have live rescues in Europe, typically 1 to 4 a season. The reason is simple. We're a Swedish company and have been in Europe longer, so we have more people in Europe equipped with reflectors. We even had a live rescue 10 days ago in Austria (1.5m deep for nearly an hour). Check out our FB page. (Scroll down to find it.)

Interestingly, this off-piste skier had a transmitting transceiver but rescuers (as in trained, organized rescuers) missed the signal when they did their transceiver search. (Companions and organized rescue have been known to miss.) When a rescue helicopter arrived they used the RECCO detector and quickly (in minutes) got a RECCO signal and then got his transceiver signal. Our device can find both. Hmm…without RECCO he would have been buried a whole lot longer, and today probably would not be enjoying time with family and friends.

RECCO finds people, and sometimes they are alive. Turns out those folks, their families, friends and rescuers are pretty pleased with our system. RECCO does not replace a transceiver. The system is just another tool for organized rescue teams. To use the RECCO system far in the backcountry is just as appropriate as using it in or near a ski area because it makes the search faster. People should have transceivers, and for them RECCO reflectors are backup. Also, there are many folks who don’t even know they should have a transceiver. For them reflectors are a basic rescue system. As demonstrated recently in Austria, RECCO gives another chance. If my wife, kid or friend was buried, I’d like to know they would get that chance.

Sincerely,
Dale Atkins
RECCO AB

Well said Dale. I believe this thread got off track because of a statement I made that was taken out of context and was run with.

Just because it hasn't been said yet.

Recovers Extremely Cold Corpses Occasionally

Dale cuts and pastes his lame sales pitch every time recco gets mentioned.

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ighlight=recco