Avalanche Air Brake, good or bad idea?

Hello everyone,

Some of you may have seen our avalanche air bag tests here on the forum and we have a question for you about air brakes.

Several years ago when Doug Coombs was killed in a fall, a discussion began here in our lab as to whether an air brake might have made a difference.

When we say air brake we are talking about a small nylon wing with the minimal amount of lanyards, each about 3 feet long, say a meter or more. Something that would slow your decent down the mountain in a fall.

The problem with an air brake is getting it out there in time; deploying it quickly. The plan is to have our avalanche air bag throw the air brake into the air. The air bag pops out of the vest in a fraction of a second and then fully inflates over the next few seconds. We think that the initial burst of the air bag could be used to deploy a properly positioned air brake, and that the air brake could be tethered to the avalanche air bag, which is tethered to the victim.

One of the problems we have talked about so far would be the lanyards getting wrapped around the victim and making things worse.

What are your opinions of this idea? Any suggestions from people with parachute experience, or anyone who has taken a good fall and thinks the device would have helped or hurt their situation would be helpful.

We have talked the idea over with professional snowmobile riders and they are keen on the idea as they often fall off their machines when making a turn on a hill. When we mentioned to them that if the lanyards got tangled up in a cartwheeling snowmobile they would be dragged to their death they told us that the machines often preceded the rider down the mountain in a fall and that slowing their own fall downhill would be worth the risk. These people work with their snowmobiles 12 months a year for a snowmobile manufacturer, and they told us there are several times a year they would pull the rip cord on an air brake.

Do people on skis and snowboards run into these life and death falls often, or rarely?

Is this a good idea or a bad one? What do you think?

Seems like a better option has already been developed and has been in use since the mid 80's.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_l4a5yHnwoy...helicopter.jpg

Uh.... what? There is no guarantee that the user is going to be in the right position to deploy this device... because they might be... TUMBLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Air brake? Is this some sort of reinvented parachute?

It would help to see drawings or photos.

We've got some crude artwork but that's about it. Will post here soon.

Suppose it would take some kind of testing to see if deploying it could arrest somebody out of a full tumble downhill. Maybe, maybe not. That would be a very difficult test to set up and pull off. Dummies aren't as supple as humans and will tumble differently, and a remote trigger on a tumbling dummy would be a real tough thing to succeed at.

There is one particular pro snowmobiler who says he will test a prototype for us this winter. He told us that he would most likely run into a situation where he would fall off his machine in steep terrain and be willing to give it a try. That would be assuming he is either uphill or off to the side of his falling snowmobile.

We have been talking to another person who thinks this idea would have value in the Alps, where people encounter more cliffs and drop offs than in North America..

So how small a chute can you get away with to give a survivable impact if you drop off a cliff? Don't forget that it takes time for a chute to deploy fully (assuming you don't get the lines wrapped round neck/skis/poles/arms/legs and don't get slammed into the cliff or the chute collapsed by the wind).

I suspect the answer would mean a big pack - especially if it also has an avalanche bag built in!

Then all you have to remember is to pull the right ripcord ;)

Squirrel suits won't do it. A speed wing has permissible lift, but tough to employ.

A launch assisted canopy looks like the only viable option - short of doing a more hudger airbag with helium canisters.

Or deploy-able bat wings.

falling in an avalanche= no control to PROPERLY deploy ANY type of chute.

Dumb idea, and I love good ideas having to do with avalanche safety.

We think the avalanche air bag bursting from the top of the vest would be enough to deploy a small air brake fully and quickly, if the lanyards were small enough. We are imagining something not more than 6 feet above or behind the victim’s shoulders. The avalanche air bag itself is rather large. The outside edge of the air bag (where the lanyards would be tethered) is almost a meter away from the user’s shoulders, so a set of small lanyards would place the air brake relatively close to the person deploying it.

We are also keeping the lanyards small to keep tangling and snagging to a minimum.

We are not designing around accidents involving 100-foot freefalls, we are thinking more along the lines of life threatening falls on mountainsides with extreme slopes. This lets us downsize the parachute to an air brake, which allows us to fit it inside our present avalanche vest design.

Assuming a person is in a tumbling fall down an extreme slope and is able to pull a ripcord, we think the combination of air bag and air brake would be completely thrown clear of the containment vest in approximately half a second or less. Would a small air brake then be able to fully inflate? Only one way to find out, design a test. Hopefully we will have a prototype and a plan for this coming winter’s avalanche testing.

Pic in the works.

Any thoughts on how well the airbag will keep you on the surface of an avalanche when the 'air brake' is full of snow and dragging you under?

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Originally Posted by nickinbc

Any thoughts on how well the airbag will keep you on the surface of an avalanche when the 'air brake' is full of snow and dragging you under?

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Sorry, but I think you'd have a better chance of staying on the surface with a pack full of broken hammers...:eek:

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Originally Posted by DasBlunt

falling in an avalanche= no control to PROPERLY deploy ANY type of chute.

Dumb idea, and I love good ideas having to do with avalanche safety.

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depends how high energy the release was. but yeah i agree. i think its a dumb idea for sure. but hell if they're gonna test it, i'll watch.

If you're gonna do it, make the fabric breathable.
As in non-suffocating.

Wouldn't it be rendered useless if it contacts the mountain side (i.e. it would loose it's ability to "catch" air)? Seems like it would only be usefull if you were to rocket off of a very large cliff, in which case only a real chute could stand to save you.

We are thinking that the air bag will keep the victim at the surface of the snow even with a small air brake attached. That’s assuming there is an avalanche going on.

Having watched dozens of avalanche air bags pull all kinds of different weighted items to the surface of various sized slides, we find it hard to believe an air brake would drag a victim to the bottom of an avalanche, but there is only one way to find out.

This brake is something you would deploy in either a fall or an avalanche. Assuming you are falling, the question is can the air bag stop a person from tumbling (due to its position and its force/mass) while also properly deploying an air brake.

If you are in a full on tumble downhill, and you can reach a rip cord, you are going to be throwing a lot of material out into the air. Is it enough force/mass to arrest the tumble? A 150 liter air bag is quite large, and is able to pivot somewhat on a 6 inch air bag/harness attachment bar between the user’s shoulders.

Almost 10 years ago we attached avalanche air bags to snowmobiles and put them in avalanches. The snowmobiles with avalanche air bags skidded down the mountain in a straight line. Sometimes the air bag would lead the snowmobile downhill and sometimes the snowmobile would lead the air bag downhill, but it was in a straight line and the snowmobiles did not roll or cartwheel. Control snowmobiles without avalanche air bags in the same avalanches were seen cartwheeling and spinning downhill as the avalanche engulfed them.

As the victim cartwheels down the mountain, the air bag surely will have some effect on tumbling, although just what that is we don’t yet know.

Also, we are not sure what will happen when the brake contacts the mountainside.

What happens when it fills with snow and is working against the air bag by pulling you down?

We are thinking that this would be an additional item that a skier/boarder or snowmobiler would have affixed to their avalanche airbag only if they were on steep mountainsides where a fall could be potentially fatal. We are thinking that this is something for the extreme mountain sportsperson only, something that would probably be more useful in the Alps than the Rockies. The air brake is more about slowing a fall than having any effect in a slide.

However, it must work in an avalanche as well as in a fall or it’s a deal breaker.

If the user is in an avalanche we are assuming it is an avalanche the victim has started, not an avalanche slamming into someone at full speed. Our second assumption is that the person in the starting zone of the avalanche is not immediately cartwheeling down the mountain, but instead there are a few precious seconds when the person may still be standing on their skis or snowboard or riding their snowmachine. This is when we anticipate the air brake may be useful, at the very beginning of the slide, uphill of the moving snow inside the avalanche. This is why we don't think the air brake would fill with snow and drag the user to their death.

The experiment we will need to set up to test this theory will be very difficult to produce. It would require placing our test dummy in the starting zone and remotely triggering the airbag as the avalanche begins. We have failed at remote triggering in the past in a test near Valdez, Alaska, so we are a little leery to say the least. Sure, there is a lot of remote control work going on, but the mountains are tricky and the blast from the bombs may be interfering with the radio waves for all we know.

What we are planning for is a non-avalanche test using a human tester. As mentioned we have a pro-snowmobile rider who has expressed interest in helping out, and if we feel it can be done safely we will give that a try first.

I think the spirit of this idea is fine.

But I cannot help imagine a dude with a wing like chute flying out of an avalanche, or even a jet pack?

It's interesting to me that so many of the new airbags (bca, etc.) are being designed for snowmobilers rather than skiiers.

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Originally Posted by telelebowski

It's interesting to me that so many of the new airbags (bca, etc.) are being designed for snowmobilers rather than skiiers.

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let me count the ways:
-'bilers spend money like it's going out of style
-'bilers get caught in avalanches at higher rate than skiers (at least the last couple of winters)
-'there is an evergrowing (i would say wrong) movement to legislate BC access to powered vehicles so maybe the 'bilers can say "but i have the latest in avalanche wings, i promise to be safe" thereby putting off the nanny staters for a little while...

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Originally Posted by DasBlunt

I think the spirit of this idea is fine.

But I cannot help imagine a dude with a wing like chute flying out of an avalanche, or even a jet pack?

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I think you are missing the idea. The air brake has little use in a avalanche. The air brake would be used when a skier clips a hidden rock while skiing a very steep chute. The brake would slow the fall of the skier to lessen the injuries when sliding into things at the bottom of the chute.

I can see the idea just not sure what it would take to make it a reality.

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Originally Posted by Cross

I think you are missing the idea. The air brake has little use in a avalanche. The air brake would be used when a skier clips a hidden rock while skiing a very steep chute. The brake would slow the fall of the skier to lessen the injuries when sliding into things at the bottom of the chute.

I can see the idea just not sure what it would take to make it a reality.

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the OP has said it needs to work in a avalanche or it would be pointless.

I agree with you.

This is a terrible idea. Just give it up and focus your efforts elsewhere.

Watch from 3:25 to 3:50 of this clip to see how it wouldn't work.

Thanks for the video. It looks as though the chute folds the second it touches the mountain. But the skier is down as well. We are assuming the person is still standing and skiing/boarding or sledding.

Side note. We developed our first avalanche air bag prototypes over 5 years ago for skiers and boarders, not sledders. Only last year did we develop a prototype solely for sledders (the Impact AviVest, with bare minimum pockets and protective plates for handle bar and tree hits).