Butler Gulch 10.21.04

http://www.tetongravity.com/usergall...cs/Cnv0109.jpg


Took the pup up to Butler Gulch for some exercise this morning. My expectations weren't very high considering the warm weather we have had for the past couple of days. To my surprise the conditions were pretty decent and we ended up getting in a few laps on light dry snow before calling it a day. I skinned up most of the Butler Gulch road without having to take the skis off. There were a few dirt patches here and there, but nothing long enough to take the skis off for. The stream crossings aren't frozen over yet, but there were some nice log bridges just downstream.

Skinning up towards treeline:

http://www.tetongravity.com/usergall...cs/Cnv0103.jpg

Milli:

http://www.tetongravity.com/usergall...cs/Cnv0110.jpg

The snowpack is definitely going through some weird things right now. After digging a few pits I found everything from 4 feet of bomber pack, to nasty layers of depth hoar and multiple thick slabs, to 6 inches of sugar on top of ground. All of the usual suspects were found at some point today. The pack is beginning to make me feel a little eerie and concerned on what could turn out to be a rough winter. Lot's of wind loading and several crust layers are making things interesting. Walked by some hard slab avy debris that just made the stomach turn inside out.

http://www.tetongravity.com/usergall...cs/Cnv0104.jpg

http://www.tetongravity.com/usergall...cs/Cnv0105.jpg

Looks like it ran just before the last storm (2 days ago) we had. There was a 1.5 foot crown that was beginning to fill in from wind loading at the top of a gully and the avy ran all the way to the ground once it picked up some steam towards the runout. Nasty stuff. The slope was East facing and it looks like it ran for about 600 feet.

We did a few laps on a Northerly facing low angle slope from the lower shoulder. The snow was great. The dog was wearing a smile the entire time:

http://www.tetongravity.com/usergall...cs/Cnv0107.jpg

http://www.tetongravity.com/usergall...cs/Cnv0111.jpg

http://www.tetongravity.com/usergall...cs/Cnv0112.jpg

Just below treeline the snow was light and deep. I almost forgot how great the tree skiing is at Butler Gulch. A gem that doesn't see many travelers throughout the winter. Those trees hold great snow and wonderful lines.

Winter conditions are here so be careful out there.

Once again Dave,you get the kudos!

Nice.

Your pup finds the fall line well.

great report D, thanks. I appreciate the comments on the snowpack as well.

iskibc, did the snow fall cold and dry? it sounds like the warm earth and cold nights are doing a number on your snowpack. if so, you may have some things to look for this winter. especially on those north facing persistantly scary slopes. be careful this winter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iskibc

The snowpack is definitely going through some weird things right now. After digging a few pits I found everything from 4 feet of bomber pack, to nasty layers of depth hoar and multiple thick slabs, to 6 inches of sugar on top of ground. All of the usual suspects were found at some point today. The pack is beginning to make me feel a little eerie and concerned on what could turn out to be a rough winter. Lot's of wind loading and several crust layers are making things interesting. Walked by some hard slab avy debris that just made the stomach turn inside out.

---

Thanks for the report, also appreciate the snowpack conditions, and evidence of avy activity. I'm still a student, but thinking what you experienced was an example of spatial variability/instability (I think that is what it is called).

I'm just sort of thinking out loud here, in no way am I critiquing anything you did...though, if I were to, sounds like you did all the right things...multiple pits, and ultimately, hitting something low angle, with what looked to be an exit route into trees. Also, I realize this may be stuff everyone else already knows...so, I'd welcome the discussion. Slap me on the wrist if this is unfavorable threadjacking.

I'm pretty sure it was something that was covered in my avy 1 class, but I guess something that hadn't stuck with me. Then, I heard about today at the CSAW. Scary stuff. They show that video that probably many on here have seen...the open slope above trees where there's already 6-8 lines, all relatively close to each other. It's a group of snow professionals (patroller, guide-types) skiing this slope. Then, on about the 10th line in parallel, the whole thing goes. It's scary, because a slope can seem safe...from all tests/evaluations...and even in practice with many lines in the same day...but somewhere in there lurks maybe just one small spot of weakness...hit that, and it's over. Very difficult to account for. It's why one pit isn't sufficient. Maybe spending more time digging multiple pits than doing one really thorough /meticulous one. But, even the pit has its limitations...you've only really identified that one spot...which may be generally indicative, but cannot be guaranteed to guarantee safety. Today, they showed many accidents where high rutchsblock (spelling) scores existed. They seem to be finding that the 'lemon system' holds some potentially significant value, though the data isn't from CO snowpack. Also, a focus on shear quality and snow structure from pit to pit.

Interesting stuff. But, I do find it scary...because in effect, we want our tests/observations/evaluations to be something we can entrust our lives to...but that seems to be oversimplifying it.

damn, sweet ass TR!.....esp the snowpack.
FKNA, looks like a fun day!

My dog has the hots for your dog. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spthomson

but somewhere in there lurks maybe just one small spot of weakness...hit that, and it's over. Very difficult to account for. It's why one pit isn't sufficient. Maybe spending more time digging multiple pits than doing one really thorough /meticulous one.

---

I think hasty pits are a good idea. Just remember it's still only one clue. I would guess that a thinner snowpack would have more areas of localized weakness due to the underlying bed surface.

Just our of curiosity what are you studying?

Great pics and the detailed update on the snowpack is apprectied, I remember seeing quite a bit of slide activity myself along the divide around there last weekend.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iskibc

I almost forgot how great the tree skiing is at Butler Gulch. A gem that doesn't see many travelers throughout the winter. Those trees hold great snow and wonderful lines.

---

Butler Gulch not seeing many traverlers throughout the winter, are you being ironic?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ireallyliketoski

Butler Gulch not seeing many traverlers throughout the winter, are you being ironic?

---

;) Ahhh, of course the main trail gets used and abused in the winter by thousands of tourons. However, if one turns their attention to the North facing trees above and away from the trail........ ;)

Thank you very much for the report Dave. I'm going to head over there on Sunday morning. I'll have a quick look at Jones if I can and see if there were any natural slides.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mountain Junkie

I think hasty pits are a good idea. Just remember it's still only one clue. I would guess that a thinner snowpack would have more areas of localized weakness due to the underlying bed surface.

Just our of curiosity what are you studying?

---

I agree...the hasty pits are only one clue. My thinking, which may be erroeneous, is just a few hasty pits may give a better overview and catch something that digging one really thorough pit wouldn't. But, yeah, the same holds true...those hasty pits are really only indicative of the exact space you just dug. The weak spot could exist within inches of where I dug, but I wouldn't have discovered it. And I think you're on with the thought about the danger of a thinner snowpack. Hacksaw had a few good comments on that more specifically in the recent Cameron Pass TR.

As far as what I'm studying...I'm not in any degree program for this stuff...at least yet...right now, it's just more of an ongoing trying to learn about avy stuff in general. Part of that is going to "workshops" , such as the CSAW (Colorado Snow & Avalanche Workshop) yesterday which brought some of these thoughts to the front of my thinking.

IMO, by the time i reach the top of a slope and dig a pit, I am seeking confirmation of the opinions that i have formed on the way up.

Know the history of the storm cycles.
Pole probe the whole way up.
Listen and feel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ireallyliketoski

Butler Gulch not seeing many traverlers throughout the winter, are you being ironic?

---

Must be. Everyone and their poodle's on the trail. counted 34 dogs on my way down to the car last year. Heck, the rumor is that's what REI sales tells their snowshoe buyers to go straight to. I wouldn't doubt it from the traffic.

You are the man. Sick TR.

I've been. I've seen people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stanley

IMO, by the time i reach the top of a slope and dig a pit, I am seeking confirmation of the opinions that i have formed on the way up.

Know the history of the storm cycles.
Pole probe the whole way up.
Listen and feel.

---

Yeah, that was something they were talking about yesterday too...probing all over the place.

Do you mean digging a pit at the top of the slope? How do you do that safely? (again, not critiquing...just trying to learn)