Yellowstone ban overturned

From Friday's CNN:

CHEYENNE, Wyoming (AP) -- A federal judge on Friday struck down a ban on snowmobiles in Yellowstone and Grand Teton national parks, calling it a "prejudged, political" move that sought to exclude the vehicles from all national parks.

U.S. District Judge Clarence Brimmer ruled that the Clinton-era ban was invalid because it did not involve adequate public participation and failed to follow federal law. His decision could clear the way for new rules that allow the machines.

The rule was "the product of a prejudged, political decision to ban snowmobiles from all the national parks," Brimmer wrote.

The National Park Service was expected to issue new snowmobile rules next month in time for the winter recreation season.

Gov. Dave Freudenthal praised the judge's decision, saying it recognized "the fundamentally unfair nature of the ban and ensured that citizens will get to see their national park."

Attorneys for snowmobile manufacturers, winter resorts and other tourism-related ventures asked Brimmer last month to permanently lift the ban so businesses could have peace of mind about their survival.

The ban, adopted during the Clinton administration and set to take effect last winter, was set aside in early 2003 by the park service to settle a lawsuit filed by snowmobile makers. Under the agreement, new rules were drafted to allow a limited number of snowmobiles inside the parks.

Brimmer's Washington colleague, U.S. District Judge Emmet Sullivan, later overturned the regulations and ordered the ban to begin this year. Brimmer set aside Sullivan's decision in February.

i think i could handle some 4-strokes out there, but the 2-cycles gotta go.

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Originally Posted by AltaPowderDaze

i think i could handle some 4-strokes out there, but the 2-cycles gotta go.

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If I remember correctly, most of the rentals in the area were upgraded to 4strokes a couple years ago - It'll be interesting to see whether there's a partial ban on 2strokes (ie: Limited numbers) due to both the pollution and noise...

I'm all for the ban, 4 stroke, 2 stroke, all of them.

not much point to riding in the park anyway, may as well just take a snow-coach as ride a sled. want to see some wildlife? put some skis on.

but the trails and areas outside of west all around the park are sweet and well worth it.

Discussed here too

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Originally Posted by EPSkis

Gov. Dave Freudenthal praised the judge's decision, saying it recognized "the fundamentally unfair nature of the ban and ensured that citizens will get to see their national park."

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Read: ensured that fat, lazy citizens will get to see their national park. Everyone else will be driven out by the noise and air pollution, and the rangers at the entrance will continue to be poisoned by air quality worse than that in major cities.

Any time you allow snowmobiles, quads, or dirt bikes into an area, you drive out everyone who can't afford a snowmobile, quad, or dirt bike.

amen. their time has come. let's get kerry in there, then we'll see what the courts do.

...and yet another step backward in the retarded environmental policy of the Bush administration. :mad:

I'm assuming they never did a NEPA statement on this rule which is why the ban got overturned. Does anyone know more about the legal aspects of this case?

My personal feeling is that multiple use is not a bad thing, but overse is. The NPS needs to be allowed to develop sensible rules about snowmobiles in the Park, ie limiting their numbers.

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Originally Posted by fez

I'm all for the ban, 4 stroke, 2 stroke, all of them.

not much point to riding in the park anyway, may as well just take a snow-coach as ride a sled. want to see some wildlife? put some skis on.

but the trails and areas outside of west all around the park are sweet and well worth it.

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Lets shut the park down to cars, buses, motorcycles and all combustible engines. Want to see some wildlife? Ride a bike.

Let's shut down the road to Bridger Bowl too. Want to ski Bridger, put some skis on and slog. While we are at it, lets get rid of the chair lifts too.

I'm for a ban on two stroke motors, but four stroke motors have their place. Snowmobile companies need to faze out two stroke motor production entirely. I think they might already be in the process of doing this.

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Originally Posted by Telekóptero

amen. their time has come. let's get kerry in there, then we'll see what the courts do.

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Kerrys going to make us all stupid rich, solve our problems, end world hunger, and achieve world peace!! ;)

Sweet quote Telekop, now get your ass up here!(we're making turns)

What should be banned are diesel engines. How many times have you seen a diesel u-haul going up a pass BLOWING black exhaust everywhere? That's nasty. 2-strokes are bad, but I think diesels are worse.

As far as Yellowstone goes, it's just a big zoo with a bunch of animals used to humans, and snowmobiles aren't going to effect them. 2 strokes are going to be around forever, just like 2 stroke dirt bikes have been. You just can't get the same performance out of a 4-stroke, not to mention 2-strokes are so damn simple and easy to work on.

Yesterday, I spent 2 hours in a meeting with the USFS and the Mount Rainier National Parks administrators regarding the proposed new boundary closure at Crystal Mountain.

While trhe USFS was gracious and conceded to drop the closure on their part of the border, the MRNP administrators were intransigent.

While several members f the rocking teenage combo at the mikes repeatedly pointed out that the EIS data specifically documents that user impact on the park is within park management standards, the NP admins insisted that their "gut level" told them otherwise.

Moreover, the MRNP insists that if you buy a lift ticket and use the lifts more than once, you are part of an extension of the parent corporation and you have ceded your right of access to public lands within the park.

But it's OK if you buy a single ride ticket.

No, this is not a Kafka novel.

Most alarmingly, this is the agenda of a parks administrator who has been promoted from head of MRNP to head of the REGION NPs.

So Baker folks, be prepared. It's likely that this NP administration may try to rescind access to North Cascades NP as well.

Then after that? Oh why not Grand Teton National Park?

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Yesterday, I spent 2 hours in a meeting with the USFS and the Mount Rainier National Parks administrators regarding the proposed new boundary closure at Crystal Mountain.

While trhe USFS was gracious and conceded to drop the closure on their part of the border, the MRNP administrators were intransigent.

While several members f the rocking teenage combo at the mikes repeatedly pointed out that the EIS data specifically documents that user impact on the park is within park management standards, the NP admins insisted that their "gut level" told them otherwise.

Moreover, the MRNP insists that if you buy a lift ticket and use the lifts more than once, you are part of an extension of the parent corporation and you have ceded your right of access to public lands within the park.

But it's OK if you buy a single ride ticket.

No, this is not a Kafka novel.

Most alarmingly, this is the agenda of a parks administrator who has been promoted from head of MRNP to head of the REGION NPs.

So Baker folks, be prepared. It's likely that this NP administration may try to rescind access to North Cascades NP as well.

Then after that? Oh why not Grand Teton National Park?

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Sounds like the same "gut-level" mentality of the the douchebag tearing down the Berthoud Pass lodge... :(

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Lets shut the park down to cars, buses, motorcycles and all combustible engines. Want to see some wildlife? Ride a bike.

Let's shut down the road to Bridger Bowl too. Want to ski Bridger, put some skis on and slog. While we are at it, lets get rid of the chair lifts too.

I'm for a ban on two stroke motors, but four stroke motors have their place. Snowmobile companies need to faze out two stroke motor production entirely. I think they might already be in the process of doing this.

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hyperbole and exageration, the first resort of a moron without an argument.

have you ever ridden in the park? it basically sucks. bring your kidney belt and your gas mask, but leave your right thumb home, you wont be needing that.

The main reason i am all for banning sleds in Yellowstone is because they serve no purpose. Its not fun and it offers no advantages over a snowcoach.
The park would be much more enjoyable in the winter without the noise and stink of snowmobiles. Snowmobiling in the areas around Yellowstone is a blast. I was out last winter around two-top and we got into some of the areas that were burned in 88, it was a damn blast flying through deep pow surrounded by huge burned trees. a rather surreal experience.

I own a sled and i use it to access backcountry skiing that is not accessible by other means. Sure, sometimes i get into the speed and tear ass around for some big pow turns, but mostly i look forward to reaching my destination and shutting the thing off.

im not a luddite, im not against sleds in general or even two strokes in particular, just dont think there is a need or even an advantage to riding in yellowstone.

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Originally Posted by fez

hyperbole and exageration, the first resort of a moron without an argument.

have you ever ridden in the park? it basically sucks. bring your kidney belt and your gas mask, but leave your right thumb home, you wont be needing that.

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Nice, insults are the first resort, knee jerk reflex of self righteous, narrow minded individuals who think that their way is the only way. :rolleyes:

I am on your side. Can you not see that? I haven't ridden in the park. I lived in Bozeman for several years and had no interest in waiting in line and sucking two stroke at the West entrance.

Perhaps riding in the park is not for you, but maybe the fatties drinking Budweiser love it.

Um, isn't sledding in YNP guided? As in, not free-for-all?

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

I am on your side. Can you not see that?

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No, i can't see that, you've done a spectacular job of obfuscating it.

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Originally Posted by 13

Um, isn't sledding in YNP guided? As in, not free-for-all?

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i think that was one of the phases of the ban. but no, it hasnt always been guided. and likely with the ban overturned it won't be any more.

but it may as well be. 45 mph speed limit, stay on the roads.

I remember reading this article in a local Wyoming newspaper while I was visiting Yellowstone. It stated that although 2-stroke snowmobiles theoretically are much dirtier than 4-strokes, the 4-stroke snowmobiles actually being made were no cleaner. Anyone know if this is true?

And as for the ruling? Is this even news anymore during this administration?

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Originally posted by Trackhead:
I'm for a ban on two stroke motors, but four stroke motors have their place. Snowmobile companies need to faze out two stroke motor production entirely. I think they might already be in the process of doing this.

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Fez,

Read before your reflexes type.

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Originally posted by Fez:
im not a luddite, im not against sleds in general or even two strokes in particular, just dont think there is a need or even an advantage to riding in yellowstone.

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And perhaps many people feel the same way about chairlifts. I personally don't think there is a need, but there is an advantage, to riding a chairlift. It goes both ways. Not everyone loves chairlifts. Look at the Native American population fighting agains Snowbowl, AZ to stop snowmaking, new lifts, etc.

Opinions are like - - -holes, everybody has one. Some peoples are just more agape, blown out, dilated, and vocal.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Lets shut the park down to cars, buses, motorcycles and all combustible engines. Want to see some wildlife? Ride a bike.

Let's shut down the road to Bridger Bowl too. Want to ski Bridger, put some skis on and slog. While we are at it, lets get rid of the chair lifts too.

I'm for a ban on two stroke motors, but four stroke motors have their place. Snowmobile companies need to faze out two stroke motor production entirely. I think they might already be in the process of doing this.

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True. We should also probably ban humans cause we are clearly all evil.

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Originally Posted by tetonwilly

Funny how the people furthest away have the strongest opinions about this issue. First, National Parks have always been about USE not preservation. Second, Everybody loves to jump on the bandwagon. Truth is, the 60,000 RV's that roll through there every summer are far more detrimental than the 4stroke snomobiles. Of course people in New Jersey or whereever could care less about the locals and their economy. Sure glad this decision is being made in DC... grrr Stick to couch legislating your own backyard. Damn ignorant Busibodies

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1) this is my backyard.
2) if its for use and not preservation, why cant i ride my bike on the trails or hunt there, why cant i launch a boat at fishing bridge and fish cutthroats at the outlet of yellowstone lake? without preservation there can be no
sustained use.
3) studies have shown that eliminating snowmobiles in the park will have a short term negative effect on the economy of west. But long term an increase in skier and tourist traffic will more than make up for it. People more interested in peace and quiet in the winter, interested in hearing the roar of a geyser rather than the whine of a sled or seeing a marten or fox rather than just its tracks will begin to visit Yellowstone in the winter again. Why must it be a 4-season amusement park for motorized transportation?

<edit> looks like willy deleted his post while i was replying</edit>

I'm sure there will be an article on it but just saw on the new that for the next three winters they will allow 720 guided sleds a day in yellowstone and some other number in grand teton.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

What should be banned are diesel engines. How many times have you seen a diesel u-haul going up a pass BLOWING black exhaust everywhere? That's nasty. 2-strokes are bad, but I think diesels are worse.

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Diesels are getting better in both economy and emissions, which is a primary reason why so many manufacturers offer them in new models (VW Touareg, and Jettas, Jeep KJ (Liberty), foreign Toyotas, and so on).
Diesel exhaust produces less hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide by chemical design.
The biggest problem is NOx emissions, with a lesser matter being sulfur output.
They are getting better all the time.
Oh, and small amounts of smoke mean that the truck is running at close to optimum efficiency.

http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuel.../L2_6_9_rf.htm
http://www.dieselforum.org/factsheet/fastfacts.html