Alternatives to the Avalanche Handbook?

Printable View

02-26-2009, 05:42 PM
Skis

Alternatives to the Avalanche Handbook?

I've read Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain and taken an Avy I class. I find the snow science aspect pretty interesting, so I'm looking for a more detailed book. I wasn't thrilled with what I read in the Avalanche Handbook (to me, seemed like they were throwing around big words without understanding them). Is there anything else around that level that's a little better written? Amazon has it, then a $170 text full of partial derivatives and such. I'd like technical, but I'm not ever going to need that much.

EDIT: I have nothing against big words. There's a difference between using them appropriately and not. I mention more of what I mean below.
02-26-2009, 06:16 PM
CookieMonster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skis

I've read Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain and taken an Avy I class. I find the snow science aspect pretty interesting, so I'm looking for a more detailed book. I wasn't thrilled with what I read in the Avalanche Handbook (to me, seemed like they were throwing around big words without understanding them). Is there anything else around that level that's a little better written? Amazon has it, then a $170 text full of partial derivatives and such. I'd like technical, but I'm not ever going to need that much.

There are two basic possibilities here:

1. The authors don't understand the subject matter.
2. You don't understand the subject matter.

Given that Dave McClung and Peter Schaerer wrote The Avalanche Handbook, and given your comments about "throwing around big words without understanding them", I think it's fair to say that you simply don't understand the subject matter.

Have you actually read the book or did you skim it? What do you think is the minimum time required to learn the material in the book? 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year? Do you own the book or did you read it on Google books? How much time have you invested in actually learning the material?

The book is not really useful if you don't study the material. On the other hand, it's a pretty incredible book if you take the time to study.
02-26-2009, 06:59 PM
Hacksaw

Check out:

Secrets of the Snow: visual clues to avalanche and ski conditions.
By: Edward R. LaChapelle
02-26-2009, 07:26 PM
homemadesalsa

...and you might have a look at The Avalanche Review. We try to take all the papers with, ahem, big words in them, and translate that into techniques or ideas for the practitioner.

You can look at pdfs from last year and years before, then at teasers/ front page stories from this year's issues online, but to read this years issues you gotta subscribe, or be REALLY nice to a AAA board member or the editor. And you can subscribe online through Paypal.

Hmmm, "insert link" isn't working, anyway go to:

http://www.americanavalancheassociat...g/publications
02-26-2009, 07:32 PM
Skis

I'll check out Secrets. Thanks, Hacksaw.

CM: I should have known that someone would respond that way. Let me clarify with an example. The Feynman Lectures on Physics is an example of an excellent, precise, accurate, readable text written by an expert. From a chemistry background, I wasn't impressed with the Avalanche Handbook's treatment of related subjects (physics, crystal theory structure). It's probably an excellent text on avoiding avalanches, but I'd like something with better science. It may not exist, but if it does, someone here may well know what to look at.
02-26-2009, 07:44 PM
neck beard

On my CAA Level 1 every student passed negative comment about The Avalanche Handbook - some students had advanced levels of education and had read difficult subjects at University, others had not. All were bamboozled. I have read parts of it again since then and it goes in easier, but still not without the required shift of the mind. That otherwise great book could be written differently and be far more effective. It's a shame.
02-26-2009, 07:55 PM
Skis

Hohes, that's exactly the response I had to it. Looks like there's a space for a similar but more clearly written text. It may be the best option for me, though.

Salsa, I just went to the site, I'll give it a good look.
02-26-2009, 08:02 PM
CookieMonster

My response contained some simple questions. Were you offended by the questions?

Learning the material in The Avalanche Handbook requires an investment of time and some effort. Your original post didn't clearly state that you wanted a more scientific treatment of the material. Read the Foreword to The Avalanche Handbook for information on the author's thoughts on the technical/non-technical aspects of the book and its audience.
02-26-2009, 08:44 PM
Skis

Yeah, I was a little put off by the questions. Part of that is my fault. Maybe I didn't clarify that what I'm interested in is a well written, clear technical treatment, which is not what I think the Avalanche Handbook is. Sometimes a book really is poorly written and it's not just the reader. I think there's potential for a more readable book that's no less (perhaps even more) technical than the Avalanche Handbook.
02-26-2009, 09:00 PM
LeeLau

Skis - you won't technical scientific textbooks per se. You'll have to look at libraries at universities. Take a look at some publications by the U of Calgary's avalanche programme on this topic. I can't help you with specific titles. http://www.eng.ucalgary.ca/Civil/Avalanche/

Pascal Haegali has also done some interesting stuff but I don't know if he's into snow science that much - I think he focuses on behavioral/heuristics- http://sfu.academia.edu/PascalHaegel...arch_Interests
02-26-2009, 09:06 PM
homemadesalsa

You bring up a good point- I have used both the Avalanche Handbook and Tremper's Staying Alive as texts for my 3-week avalanche forecasting class. Now am using the second edition of Staying Alive, as it speaks more clearly to my students.

I do find that research and understanding of all aspects of the avalanche phenomenon is growing at such a great rate that I primarily use the ISSW proceedings as texts every 2 years. Have you had a look at those? That's where the newest and coolest lives...
02-26-2009, 11:34 PM
~mikey b

Points well taken about the Avalanche Handook, but I would still argue that it is a very valuable resource. There are things in the Handbook you won't find anywhere else - explosives info for one example. There are a great many books out there that you can learn a lot from, and all are very different beasts. I love books. I REALLY love avalanche books. As I've been prepping for my Level 1 class I am doing this weekend, the pile on my desk in front of me has grown (to the annoyance of my wife). Besides the ones mentioned above, I've been re-reading and pulling things from ABC's of Avalanche Safety, The Avalanche Book, Snow Sense, Avalanche Safety for Skiers and Climbers, The Avalanche Hunters, The Avalanche Enigma...

Hacksaw and homemadesalsa have got you on the right track. Also, check out the Moonstone avalanche library on avalanche.org for archived articles dating back to the 1950's that are almost unpossible to come by elsewhere. http://www.avalanche.org/~moonstone/ Of particular interest to me are the articles about the Alpine Meadows avalanche in 1982. http://www.avalanche.org/~moonstone/TAR/tar.htm

Still looking for older editions of The Snowy Torrents.....
02-27-2009, 02:05 PM
CookieMonster

The questions were just questions, food for thought as it were. No harmful intentions nor goal of snarking. ( I'm not known for writing snarky posts. ) The material in The Avalanche Handbook is in places very difficult because the information in the book draws from a number of knowledge domains, such as material science, formal logic, psychology, etc., that by themselves probably require years of study.

Studying helps a great deal but obviously won't make the material more scientific. Having spent a great deal of time learning the material in the book, I feel qualified to say that an investment of time and effort, along with reasonable expectations of the time required to learn the material, is worthwhile and helpful. That's why I posed the questions.
02-27-2009, 06:00 PM
Hacksaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skis

I'll check out Secrets. Thanks, Hacksaw.

Sure. You should also check out Ed's other book: Field Guide to Snow Crystals.
02-27-2009, 06:54 PM
Crystal_Mt_Dreamin

Quote:

Originally Posted by homemadesalsa

...and you might have a look at The Avalanche Review. We try to take all the papers with, ahem, big words in them, and translate that into techniques or ideas for the practitioner.

You can look at pdfs from last year and years before, then at teasers/ front page stories from this year's issues online, but to read this years issues you gotta subscribe, or be REALLY nice to a AAA board member or the editor. And you can subscribe online through Paypal.

Hmmm, "insert link" isn't working, anyway go to:

http://www.americanavalancheassociat...g/publications

Didn't even know about this pub, will be sure to check it out
03-01-2009, 01:08 AM
RoanMtnMan

I had some blank stares after my first read through the Avalanche Handbook several years ago (2nd edition) as well. My background is not in science. Over the years I listened, observed, and referred back. I then re-read it before an avy 2 class, took the class, and then reviewed any topics that were still hazy. I feel like I understand most of the concepts fairly well now. It took some time but snowpacks are complicated things.

You mentioned that you like the snow science part, I think that combining the Avy Handbook with a level 2 would be perfect for you. I also studied Snow Sense, Staying Alive, The Avy Review, and many articles forwarded by a friend that is over the top interested in this stuff. They were all good resourses but the Avy Handbook is much like a college textbook, comprehensive, however most of us feeble minded skiers need someone to explain it.

Of course grasping the concepts is like completing college. The real expertise comes from a lifetime of diligent observation and experience. I am still working on that part.
03-01-2009, 06:42 AM
neck beard

From the above link, amazing free resource

http://www.americanavalancheassociat..._archives.html
03-01-2009, 09:41 PM
Skis

Level 2 is a little premature for me. I'd like (and they recommend) a bunch more bc experience for that class. Explosives would be great...but it's tough enough to fit in as much skiing as I do...convincing someone to let me blow stuff up would be great, but not too likely.

Thanks for all the resources. I'll be looking at the avalanche review and at some of the books. I have the avalanche handbook coming on interlibrary loan, since it seems that, while imperfect, it's the only book of its kind.