Backcoutnry Skiing Survival and Solo - Post #100

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10-12-2003, 06:44 PM
summit

Backcoutnry Skiing Survival and Solo - Post #100

This is a transfer of a post I just wrote at the other place in response to a bumped thread started by Shera about a solo BC trek she made.

I decided I didn't want it disappeared in 3 months... plus I thought you all would find it usefull.

Post 100!

Quote:

Originally posted by board:
[qb]don't be fooled Loveland pass and Berthoud Pass should not be ventured alone ![/qb]

Come now... I think that's a bit much scolding. Loveland Pass is heavily travelled. Someone will see you fall and break a leg. You are also less than 2 miles LoS to A-Basin on the SC side so you can FRS/GMRS to resort skiers at A-Basin. You can also probably bounce GMRS to Loveland or A-Basin from the other side. Avvy danger is usually quite low except right after a storm or on idiots cornice during the late spring. You check for yourself.

Now if you go farther off up towards Grizzly you might not get seen if something happens, but you can *probably* radio. (And I'm very guilty of stupidity here)

I carry my cellphone in the BC, but I've done some things to it... know the system codes to choose towers... trimode twinband (900MHz AMPS and 800MHz CDMA and 1.9GHz PCS), 6" aluminum skewer antenna, can make calls from the base of A-Basin even. I use Verizon, but whoever you use, keep your PRL up to date.

If you do a lot of solo BC stuff, get a VHF radio and some batteries. Most places have good repeater networks. It would definately be a good idea to get a license too if you want to use it to transmit when you are not in trouble (you don't need a license in an emergency). This is on my to do list.

If you do a lot of solo BC stuff and have $500 sitting around, buy a 406MHZ PLB (121.5MHz EPIRBS are useless on land unless you 10 miles into the back country and aren't going to die in the next day... CEP is 12mi! It's the way COSPAS-SARSAT works with the old 121.5MHz beacons... and planes don't sit around listening on that freq even though it is the aviation distress frequency (you can learn more from NOAA or post here). Also, most SAR teams don't have receivers. I believe we have em at SCRG.

So what do I carry besides a beacon, shovel, and probe? It depends on how far in I am going but for a multihour trip alone in the winter:

FOOD/WATER:
1000-1500 calories in food (energy bars, MRE entre, sardines in olive oil)
100oz 1:3 gatorade:water

NAV:
Real compass /w inclinometer
Compass on my watch
Bubble compass on whistle
Barometer on my watch
Altimeter on my watch
Topo map (unless I absolutely know the area)
GPS (if I dont know the area... and loaded with premade alternate exfil routes)

CLOTHING:
Extra pair of thick wool socks
Goretex thinsulate storm over mittens (fit over my gloves)
Gators
Extra Hat or neck gator or balaclava
Goggles (if I am not wearing them)
sometimes an extra base layer

SURVIVAL:
3 ways to make fire (magnesium bar+striker/waterproof matches/magnifying glass on whistle)
15ft Duct tape (does everything and more, even starts fires)
15ft 550 survival chord
hand warmers
multitool (knife, fix equipment and improvise)
mylar space blanket
mylar space bivy sack
safety pins (fix everything!)

COM/SIG:
Mirror on compass for signaling
Whistle
Cellphone /w extra Li battery
FRS/GMRS radio (2W high quality) extra batteries
laser pointer if I am going to be in sight of civilization (laze cars or planes @ 10mi)

MEDKIT:
toughstrip bandaids
medical tape + guaze
ace wrap
TP
4-200mg ibuprofen
4-220mg naproxen
2-160mg sulfa-trimeth
2-750mg ciprofloxacin
1 multivitamin
100cc 190proof ethyl alcohol (disinfectant, fire starter, & if I am gonna die, I'll die happy)
(splints can be improvised out of ski poles or Al pack stays)

It looks like a long list, but it really isn't that much. Incidently, this is most of the components for my normal carry for backcountry, personal pack for a SAR mission or a Get-Home BOB.
10-12-2003, 07:13 PM
13

Re: Backcoutnry Skiing Survival and Solo - Post #100

Excellent list, although there are some things I'd leave home. True survivalists would consider you a pussy. ;)

Some knowledge of backcountry survival skills and of SAR techniques will further improve your probabilities of survival if you're in a world of shit.

It's worth pointing out that there are plenty of books that you can read (or pack along). One that I can think of:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/00...1.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
10-13-2003, 11:13 PM
summit

Re: Re: Backcoutnry Skiing Survival and Solo - Post #100

Quote:

Originally posted by 13
Excellent list, although there are some things I'd leave home. True survivalists would consider you a pussy. ;)

I'm guessing either you are referring to the fact that I didn't list a Glock 20 and three mags and my knife or you have survivalist (preparadness enthusiast, whatever) confused with minimalist. I'm guessing the former.

I agree the SAS handbook is awesome. I've read it but I need to buy a copy.
10-14-2003, 04:27 AM
BakerBoy

Just curious in a non-threatening way BY, but what would you leave at home out of that list?
10-14-2003, 11:32 AM
sweetdaddy

One of the newer potentially life saving devices the solo back country traveler might consider is the avy airbag pack. Pull a rip cord and two airbags deploy to keep you floating in a slide. Does not prevent you from being swept over a cliff or slammed into a tree though. Dynafit makes 'em and I believe they're distributed by Lifelink in North America starting this year. Supposedly these devices have a proven track record of saving lives in Europe, where they've been around a few years.
10-14-2003, 11:35 AM
Beaver

Nice list. It is missing a buddy though. All thet shit iin your pack will just push your face deeper into a treewell.
10-14-2003, 11:47 AM
bad_roo

Where's your inflatable woman?
10-14-2003, 09:55 PM
summit

Quote:

Originally posted by BakerBoy
Just curious in a non-threatening way BY, but what would you leave at home out of that list?

Depends what I am doing. That is what sits in the trunk of the car and that is what would go on a SAR mission (plus a little more).

If I am doing laps on Loveland Pass with only 5-15 minute hikes, almost all of that stays in the trunk. I'd probably just take:
water/gatorade
space blacnket
energy bars
multitool
bandages
duct tape
cell phone
FRS/GMRS radio...
the rest I can make a trip to the car if I need it. obviously i'd be taking the probe/shovel/beacon/helmet

Quote:

Originally posted by sweetdaddy
One of the newer potentially life saving devices the solo back country traveler might consider is the avy airbag pack. Pull a rip cord and two airbags deploy to keep you floating in a slide. Does not prevent you from being swept over a cliff or slammed into a tree though. Dynafit makes 'em and I believe they're distributed by Lifelink in North America starting this year. Supposedly these devices have a proven track record of saving lives in Europe, where they've been around a few years.

Keeeeeeerect... CAIC seems to think they are an OK idea but to demo em first. heh.
10-14-2003, 09:59 PM
bigAK

isn't everyone forgetting the most basic of all survival bc tools - tent poles?
10-14-2003, 10:40 PM
13

Glad you asked ...

Quote:

Originally posted by SummitCo 1776
I'm guessing either you are referring to the fact that I didn't list a Glock 20 and three mags and my knife or you have survivalist (preparadness enthusiast, whatever) confused with minimalist. I'm guessing the former.

I guess mandatory winkies indicating a joke are lost on you. That's your problem, not mine.

Anyhow, my point was this -- knowledge is the most important thing to pack along, and not enough people possess the correct knowledge. Books are a good place to improve in that arena, and the SAS handbook is an excellent place to start, as is spending lots of time outdoors.

I was simply trying to point out that in addition to your list, that knowing how and when to use the stuff you listed is equally as important.

Quote:

Originally posted by BakerBoy
Just curious in a non-threatening way BY, but what would you leave at home out of that list?

Depends how light I'd wanna go, which really depends how far into the B/C I'd expect to be going, although Murphy can rear his ugly head any old time he wants.

I'm actually a conservative "take no chances" guy and would rather take all of what 1776 lists and deal with the weight.

I would leave the GPS unit and extra batteries behind, for example, because I've never used a GPS unit before and it'd be dead weight.

I'd leave acetaminophen/pain relieving stuff behind too, because I know pain would keep me going -- it sharpens my mind and would help me focus on getting out. That's obviously not a weight issue.

More importantly, I'd never go solo in the first place. To me, that's adding a HUGE dimension of risk if the shit hits the fan.
10-15-2003, 06:42 AM
sweetdaddy

Re: Glad you asked ...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 13
[B]I guess mandatory winkies indicating a joke are lost on you. That's your problem, not mine.

Anyhow, my point was this -- knowledge is the most important thing to pack along, and not enough people possess the correct knowledge. Books are a good place to improve in that arena, and the SAS handbook is an excellent place to start, as is spending lots of time outdoors.

I was simply trying to point out that in addition to your list, that knowing how and when to use the stuff you listed is equally as important.

Even better than book learnin', is to take a L1 avy course and actually get some hands on training on snow study test methods,beacon searches, safe route finding and safe travel procedures for groups.

More importantly, I'd never go solo in the first place. To me, that's adding a HUGE dimension of risk if the shit hits the fan.

If you automatically think you're reducing or eliminating you're risk by travelling with a partner or large group, think again. Look at the Canadian SME tragedy on Durrand Glacier last year, that claimed 7 lives, among those Craig Kelly. These people were all experienced backcountry travellers, guided by pros. If you chose a partner who has minimal mountaineering/avy safety knowledge and a propensity to take risks you could be increasing your risk over traveling alone.
10-15-2003, 08:54 AM
summit

13 I did miss that smiley... i see it now... sorry if my post sounded agressive and I agree with what you are saying. Although, I will probably still do low risk solo adventures... I mean... I bike solo afterall... just as dangerous.

Sweet: Yes! A poorly chosen group can be a huge factor in disaster. Ian McCammon (NOLS) gave a great talk on human factors and group dynamics in avalanche accidents yesterday at Colorado Snow and Avalanche WOrkshop at Copper Mountain... he was fucking brilliant. You might be able to find some of his papers and research online at www.snowpit.com He is one of the leading professionals and researchers in his field. I think I was very privlidged to hear him talk.

Edited to add: He discusses expert halo effects and normalization of that abnormal (i think he called it Risk Homeostasis... kickin term) but you'd be surprised by what factors group size and training has on decision making and accents.
10-15-2003, 10:07 AM
13

1776, no worries.

Quote:

Originally posted by sweetdaddy

Quote:

Originally posted by 13
More importantly, I'd never go solo in the first place. To me, that's adding a HUGE dimension of risk IF the shit hits the fan.

If you automatically think you're reducing or eliminating you're risk by travelling with a partner or large group, think again. Look at the Canadian SME tragedy on Durrand Glacier last year, that claimed 7 lives, among those Craig Kelly. These people were all experienced backcountry travellers, guided by pros. If you chose a partner who has minimal mountaineering/avy safety knowledge and a propensity to take risks you could be increasing your risk over traveling alone.

Read what I posted a little more carefully. I bolded my key point to help you out with reading comprehension.

Besides, I thought we were discussing post-incident survival and Murphy preparedness, not specifically avalanche awareness, route-taking, and risk-taking. Correct me if I'm wrong. Because if we are talking about the latter, then count me out, 'cuz I know nuthin'.

Good point about group/partner choice, regardless.
10-15-2003, 10:43 AM
phUnk

Quote:

Originally posted by bad_roo
Where's your inflatable woman?

She pops out of my backpack when I get caught in an avalanche.

Flotation device and companion-while-awaiting-rescue.
10-15-2003, 11:03 AM
zion zig zag

Quote:

Originally posted by SummitCo 1776
I mean... I bike solo afterall... just as dangerous.

so now i gotta carry all that shit when i mtb alone:( :p ?

one thing i might change on the first list is leave the magneisum and striker thingy and take a 1" cube of that parrafin/wood starter stuff. it lights quick when wet and burns for about 15 min. so that you can light wet wood/leaves/ dead pine bows, etc. I just always prepare to keep everything dry and plan on everything being wet. I guess thats the rainy south/EC coming out in me.

fuck, i get all anal on caffiene and vicodin.
10-15-2003, 11:09 AM
bad_roo

Quote:

Originally posted by phUnk
She pops out of my backpack when I get caught in an avalanche.

Flotation device and companion-while-awaiting-rescue.

She kept me on top of a Class IV monster so it was the least I could do to lovingly remove the snow plugs from each of her three functioning orifices.
10-15-2003, 11:12 AM
The Reverend Floater

Re: Re: Glad you asked ...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sweetdaddy
[B]

Quote:

Originally posted by 13

If you automatically think you're reducing or eliminating you're risk by travelling with a partner or large group, think again. Look at the Canadian SME tragedy on Durrand Glacier last year, that claimed 7 lives, among those Craig Kelly. These people were all experienced backcountry travellers, guided by pros. If you chose a partner who has minimal mountaineering/avy safety knowledge and a propensity to take risks you could be increasing your risk over traveling alone.

Gotta disagree with this one. You're only addressing avy safety....if you go into a treewell, break your femur, have a heart attack, dehydrate, suffer hypothermia, get lost, suffer a head injury, break a binding, etc. etc. etc., you are better off with a partner no matter who they are.
10-15-2003, 11:21 AM
zion zig zag

Re: Re: Re: Glad you asked ...

Quote:

Originally posted by The Reverend Floater
Gotta disagree with this one. You're only addressing avy safety....if you go into a treewell, break your femur, have a heart attack, dehydrate, suffer hypothermia, get lost, suffer a head injury, break a binding, etc. etc. etc., you are better off with a partner no matter who they are.

I subscribe to this.
10-15-2003, 06:17 PM
Platinum Pete

Going with a bad partner is worse than going solo.
Somebody who can't hold it together in a bad situation will make things worse. Somebody with bad judgement can get you into so much trouble, you're better off leaving them to die (if you could live with yourself after that). Somebody who brings the wrong stuff is a drain on your resources. I could go on and on.
You can be better off alone, but if you're making a choice between solo and a super suck partner, you probably shouldn't go. I do agree with Schralper's assertion that sometimes you do just go alone anyway and that can be great.
If you're not comfortable going solo, you definitely shouldn't; if you're sure you can go solo, you had better had asked yourself tough questions and really trust your answers. I've had solo trips go bad, but I have pulled myself through and learned from them. I am now more willing to go solo and more prepared to go solo.
To paraphrase Mark Twight: The learning curve can be punishing and even deadly, the key is to survive the learning curve.
10-15-2003, 11:48 PM
summit

EPIRB & PLB

From Summit County Search and Rescue regarding PLBs: "Don't buy them." Don't bother. They aren't worth it. There are virtually no teams in the county that have the equiptment to track them in. That's the story. Maybe in the future but right now they are ahead of their usefull time.

Regarding "surviving the learning curve" that isn't what the data shows... many experts die in obviously dangerous situation because they let their guard down because they were familiar with the terrain or they just got summit fever or a variety of other human factors.

Regarding a partner being worse than solo: Yes... if you pick someone whom you must babysit and who would assuredly become a casualty in an emergency situation, they would be a liability and probably it would be worse that solo.. but why would you choose such a person?