Wasatch 23/24 Stoke Thread: Red Snake Coverage coming at you live from tgapp's fartba

[Touring_Sedan]

From a mainstream media perspective I think “experienced” means they had skied in the backcountry before and were carrying rescue gear, differentiating them from resort skiers wandering out of gates somewhere like 9990, for example. They were young but accomplished skiers, however I don’t think that is relevant to the “experienced” label they were given in the news.

Of course every storm is different, but I’d say fresh snow in May is probably the safest of any month in general?

FWIW the "media" doesn't apply the word experienced. That was relayed to us multiple times by the UAC forecaster who was at the staging area.

But you're right the "media" nor the general public understands the differences between "I ski in jeans" and "I carry an ice axe." There's probably only 2% of the population that does

Thanks - "The Media."

[Trackhead]

The dots may only connect in retrospect, but the people left behind should still connect them. The line between a sober analysis that allows the living to learn from the dead's mistakes and victim blaming is blurry and sometimes gets crossed, but it's preferable to the alternative.

Wise words, agreed.

I’ve booted/skinned up that apron plenty of times, probably got lucky on at least a couple of them.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

FWIW the "media" doesn't apply the word experienced. That was relayed to us multiple times by the UAC forecaster who was at the staging area.

But you're right the "media" nor the general public understands the differences between "I ski in jeans" and "I carry an ice axe." There's probably only 2% of the population that does

Thanks - "The Media."

Is everyone that carries an ice axe “experienced”?


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[Bunion 2020]

Ask Jimi

[Foggy_Goggles]

I'm not sure their is anything baked into describing them as experienced other than "they had done this before, many times".

If those objecting are implying that some level of experience breeds complancy, say that. We are over 20 years into Heuristic Traps being part of avalanche education. The FACETS model is a good Nmenonic that you can use in your pre trip to check yourself and your group.

I find that if your goal is to keep you are your group safe moving forward, the framework for look at incidents is to assume that this COULD be you. For those with a base line of knowledge and EXPERIENCE, the biggest enemy is ourselves.

[Dantheman]

For those with a base line of knowledge and EXPERIENCE, the biggest enemy is ourselves.

The problem with experience and education is that it's easy to confirmation bias yourself into justifying whatever decision you have already made, with lots of dead people to prove it. None of us are immune and everyone who has spent enough time in the BC has gotten lucky at least a few times, myself very much included in retrospect. I have also ascended that apron.

The Dunning-Kruger effect applies here just as much as anywhere else, but with exceptionally high consequences.

[telefreewasatch]

Been thinking bout the posts I made and why.
Maybe I oughta explain myself without a fuck you.
Coupla times when I was younger I did not speak up about something I felt was very unsafe.
Both occasions ended poorly.
After pondering the 2nd one for a while I decided that I would never be silent again.

One has a moral obligation to speak up, even if one makes no difference in the outcome.

I thought about my first post for a while before I was brave enough to send it.
It seems that ascending Big Willow is common even though there are routes with little and no hazard to the same place.
This is an unsafe practice.
When the whole party is caught in ascent mode outcomes can be like this one.
When the whole party is in descent mode, only one person needs to be exposed at a time, and the rest of the party is ready to immediately respond to a problem.
One needs to take into account the added exposure time when ascending avalanche slopes as well.
Jimmy

[Core Shot]

^^^
As a seasoned veteran your insight is appreciated

Post.
Shit post.
Shit pasta.

This should be a safe space.

[easyrdr]

Been a backcountry skier for 25 years. Always learning something new. I read every accident report and definitely appreciate all the opinions on this forum. It's how we learn, it's how we do better, it's how we stay alive out there. Keep sharing your view TFW, it is appreciated by many.

[wra]

Lotta ways to get in trouble in the mountains



this time of year.



Didn't have to call for a rescue.



Photos from today(Sugarloaf-Alta). Storm snow still hasn't settled out on the shady side.

Very sad about the young buck dying. Experience comes with time.
Been through Big Willow half a dozen times at least. Have never skinned or booted up the accident apron. Have used TFW's route a time ot two.
Usual is from Alpine when coverage allows skinning from first hamongog, unfortunately now blocked.

[telehacker]

So folks what you/we are doing is called an After Action Review straight up stolen from the military. The guidelines need to be understood. None of us were present at time of accident. None of us really understand the decision made at that time. Also you need to put yourself in the boots of the folks on the ground and then make your call.

If we don’t learn from other mistakes you are destine to fail.


We all travel in country that has issues and not learning from others mistakes is history repeating itself .

Want to rant more but not the time.
Hate the fucking saying they died during what they loved !!!

But u might think twice about your exposure because of this. ???????

So sorry for the loss of humans and thinking of their friends who will be tasked to carry them in the funeral procession for the family !

[Dantheman]

It seems that ascending Big Willow is common even though there are routes with little and no hazard to the same place.
This is an unsafe practice.

The other routes are less direct, less convenient, and less scenic, so it becomes the default in "stable" conditions.

Lotta ways to get in trouble in the mountains



this time of year.

Wait, what, how?!

[altacoup]

I’ve been hesitant to post this thought over the years. But TFW’s post about moral obligations has made me come out of my shell. And while it’s not true for all accidents. I believe that in both the big willow accident and accident in Idaho (I was seriously worried as I had friends in that zone), an air bag would’ve been an absolute game changer. I don’t want to rehash all the heuristic/terrain/weight cons of carrying an airbag. But I’m a firm believer that in the not so distant future an airbag will considered as equally as necessary as beacon, prone, shovel. I only don’t carry one when the snow is isothermic. Couple pounds and $800 is the cheapest/lightest thing you’ll ever own if it saves your life, I prefer the Mammut version that wraps your head and neck. Saw someone fall through a cornice in Haines 3 weeks ago resulting in a D2 and 1000ft ride. He pulled his bag and end result was a bruised knee. Without the bag the chances of a deadly accident would’ve been exponentially increased.


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[Yukonrider]

an airbag will considered as equally as necessary as beacon, prone, shovel.

One of my thoughts when I read the initial report was "well I usually carry an airbag" Then I thought about it longer and harder, and that mission fit the profile of a trip I would -possibly- leave my bag at home in favor of a lighter setup.

I agree with you though, I was somewhat taken aback coming from Colorado where most of my touring partners carried bags, folks in the Wasatch seem to be at less than 50% adoption rate. Seems airbags are more prevalent among the less hardcore crowd, for lack of a better term. But when you get back in the big terrain very few people are wearing them.

I even went so far as to offer my regular touring partners a sweetheart deal on my old airbag, but they were completely disinterested. I've spent some time musing on the topic on the skin track and only thing I can figure is price and weight. Although I do have to be a bit more tactical with space in my airbag too, which is annoying on technical missions.

[D-Roc]

I have an airbag, I almost never bring it out - the only time it comes out is if I my skills, sense, homework, and terrain knowledge cannot give me a reasonable understanding of what lies below.

An airbag is a weak insurance policy and think it breeds a bravado - "i got an airbag" and would lead the skier to overlook a concern where they would otherwise think twice.

As a math person, the statistics speak for themselves in this article, worth a review:
https://wms.org/magazine/magazine/12...trauma%20alone.

[sfotex]

Airbags are getting lighter/better every season, take the Ortovox/Arc LiTric as an example. The weight gap is narrowing. If your motorized access skiing there isn't much downside to an airbag.

The one thing with the Big Willow accident though was they had their skis on their packs (I'm going to assume A-frame..) and were booting with an axe. probably not the ideal setup to deploy an airbag.

[altacoup]

So you only use your weak insurance policy in exactly the situations where you claim it leads to a heuristic trap?

Anything not isothemic and I wear the bag. Any full burial has bad odds. Anything, even if small, that might help is a win to me. Airbag has absolutely zero impact on what where when to ski.

[Trackhead]

I don’t live in the Wasatch anymore…but it seems like the light is right trend has eclipsed safety in some groups? Smaller shovels, no airbags, etc.

Or is that observation untrue? Has skimo speed obsession eclipsed safety?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

There’s nothing wrong with using an airbag from a practical standpoint but how about focusing on terrain management.

The common thread in accident reports and accounts from people is always “we were prepared and had all the necessary avalanche gear.” The reality is that being vigilant and conservative with terrain selection is the most important thing when it comes to staying alive in this activity.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t ski bigger lines or in powder mid winter but that you should consider all the risk of your choices before you dive. If there’s a safer ascent option that keeps you out of harms way take it even if it means a bit more work and time.


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[Bunion 2020]

^^^ Excellent points.

And someone could ski BC for 40+ years without a scratch and still make a single and what turns out to be poor choice and is forever known as another experienced skier who died in an avalanche.

[Phall]

This podcast is really interesting on the topic. Canada already considers it 4 main items for avalanche safety, B/S/P/Airbag.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3g4...db35cbe031447f

[Phall]

edit-duplicate

[Dantheman]

The one thing with the Big Willow accident though was they had their skis on their packs (I'm going to assume A-frame..) and were booting with an axe. probably not the ideal setup to deploy an airbag.

Most people keep the triggers stashed except when skiing to avoid a possible accidental deployment. I'm not saying that's safe practice, but it's how they are commonly used.

And someone could ski BC for 40+ years without a scratch and still make a single and what turns out to be poor choice and is forever known as another experienced skier who died in an avalanche.

Case in point, Craig Patterson: https://ascentbackcountry.com/avalan...rson-incident/

UDOT avy forecaster, literally took one extra step too far on what is considered a very safe ascent route and was killed by an 8" deep, 40 ft wide slide.

[altacoup]

There’s a lot of misuse with airbags. If you’re wearing one in avi terrain, trigger should be out. My pack has cross carry for booting with trigger out. They’re not fool proof but if it works just once it’s there best purchase you’ve ever made.

[sfotex]

Most people keep the triggers stashed except when skiing to avoid a possible accidental deployment. I'm not saying that's safe practice, but it's how they are commonly used.



Case in point, Craig Patterson: https://ascentbackcountry.com/avalan...rson-incident/

UDOT avy forecaster, literally took one extra step too far on what is considered a very safe ascent route and was killed by an 8" deep, 40 ft wide slide.

And he deployed his airbag...