50 years to the day

[JimmyCarter]

We're also sponsoring Saudi casualties. And Pakistan. And Turkey. I am sure there's more. That's a good shortlist to start. We let MBS have his goons hack up a journalist for crying out loud.

The numbers aren’t even close, and with Israel it’s almost all military spending vs humanitarian aid.

Our relationship with Saudi Arabia has always been a rights problem, and has garnered plenty of negative exposure, but ironically enough our military aid there has helped protect Israel. Still not all that comfortable with the new military aid pact

[Mazderati]

Deny. Defend. Deflect.

[mcski]

Only Israel gets that reaction for <1% of the casualties. Why is that, I wonder?

Because they are held to a higher standard. As they should be.

Their situation is fucked, but they’ve contributed to it by the endless settlement creep and other indignities.

The war campaign is exactly what Hamas wanted and they/bibi are following the script. Hamas isn’t going away without a political solution/alternative, especially when the actual leadership is in Qatar. There isn’t any additional military action that will provide a solution. It’s just retribution now. It may even be to Israel’s detriment at some point, like when the US outlawed the Ba’ath party in Iraq.

There’s a lot of fart sniffing in this thread but in Reddit lingo, I think the verdict is ESH.

[gravitylover]

TGR posters who rabidly support israel no matter what because they just happen to be jewish would disagree.

If it was up to me most of the other cultural communities that have experienced hate and isolating forces would have a chance at having their own country. Carve out a piece of dirt and see what happens. If it's successful and they can prove the worth to the global community that's great but if they can't how does it get reabsorbed?

Only Israel gets that reaction for <1% of the casualties. Why is that, I wonder?

Because most of the world dislikes Jews and uses any opportunity available to let it be known.

Are they and should they be held to a higher standard? Yes but, being told in no uncertain terms by your neighbor that they will not stop fucking with you until you're eliminated kind of changes the game. They want an eye for an eye, Israel will take it from them.

[dunfree]

Yes, there is profound antisemitism against Jews and Israel.


I can’t think of many other dynamics where people say “it’s a profoundly moral army, the most moral army in the world” and when confronted with numerous separate deliberate war crimes the defenders just say “shit happens gotta kill the journalists/aid workers/children for security” it’s fucked up that the IDF shoot hostages waving white flags, it’s fucked up the reservist punk blows away the Israeli that just killed a couple terrorists and there’s a fatalist shrug.

[riser4]

The numbers aren’t even close, and with Israel it’s almost all military spending vs humanitarian aid.

Our relationship with Saudi Arabia has always been a rights problem, and has garnered plenty of negative exposure, but ironically enough our military aid there has helped protect Israel. Still not all that comfortable with the new military aid pact

Are you saying there are fewer Houthi deaths in Yemen? Because I thought the toll there made Gaza seem like a picnic. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Cisco Kid]

My Jewish FB friend is celebrating that the UN got the numbers wrong. Cool, only 7,797
children died. JFC, doesn't anyone in the world but me know how to use Google? The report released by the UN was for the number of "Identified" dead. 10,000 are still unidentified.

[summit]

The numbers aren’t even close, and with Israel it’s almost all military spending vs humanitarian aid.

Our relationship with Saudi Arabia has always been a rights problem, and has garnered plenty of negative exposure, but ironically enough our military aid there has helped protect Israel. Still not all that comfortable with the new military aid pact

Numbers aren't close?

Almost 400K dead in Yemen.

500K dead in Syria.

You think we are giving Turkey, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia humanitarian aid, not military aid? All three countries are using American warplanes, bombs, missiles, and other weapons. We have multiple military bases in Saudi Arabia and a formal military alliance with Turkey.

Are you actually unaware of all the above?

The protestors across the Western cities and universities are not calling for the banning of Saudi, Turkish, and Pakistani universities and academics, the divestment from their companies, the boycotting of their products, the withdrawal of US alliance and support... only Israel gets that. And it is because they are Jews.

[dunfree]

My Jewish FB friend is celebrating that the UN got the numbers wrong. Cool, only 7,797
children died. JFC, doesn't anyone in the world but me know how to use Google? The report released by the UN was for the number of "Identified" dead. 10,000 are still unidentified.

Summit’s too fucking stupid to read, and doesn’t give a shit about war crimes. You could tell him the us is one of the largest humanitarian donors to Pakistan and it won’t penetrate.

[Core Shot]

I said it pages ago.

Israel overplayed their hand.
The world has seen it.

I feel bad for Jews. Not for Zionists.
But yeah. Shit got ugly.

[ex-powderbroker]

shut the fuck up you fucking moron

[JimmyCarter]

Numbers aren't close?

Almost 400K dead in Yemen.

500K dead in Syria.

You think we are giving Turkey, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia humanitarian aid, not military aid? All three countries are using American warplanes, bombs, missiles, and other weapons. We have multiple military bases in Saudi Arabia and a formal military alliance with Turkey.

Are you actually unaware of all the above?

The protestors across the Western cities and universities are not calling for the banning of Saudi, Turkish, and Pakistani universities and academics, the divestment from their companies, the boycotting of their products, the withdrawal of US alliance and support... only Israel gets that. And it is because they are Jews.

https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts
It’s. Not. Even. Close.

Those American bases and warplanes aren’t attacking civilians. Could you be any more intentionally obtuse with this shit?

[californiagrown]

The protestors across the Western cities and universities are not calling for the banning of Saudi, Turkish, and Pakistani universities and academics, the divestment from their companies, the boycotting of their products, the withdrawal of US alliance and support... only Israel gets that. And it is because they are Jews.

No, its because "we" expect better of israel. Israel is supposed to be a paradigm of righteousness and a pillar of western democracy in the middle east. If anything it might be islamaphobia that leads to holding Israel to high standards and placing FAAAAAR lower standards on their arab and persian neighbors. Israel is much more similar to the USA culturally than any of the other places, and so their actions/tragedy's hit closer to home here.

Its not too dissimilar as to why suburban america freaks the fuck out after every school shooting, but the magnitudes greater shooting deaths of people on the streets everyday hardly makes a dent in our collective social consciousness. We have expectations for safety and behavior at schools and in the suburbs that are far different than our expectations for safety and behavior in lower socioeconomic areas of our country.

[MultiVerse]

Its not too dissimilar as to why suburban america freaks the fuck out after every school shooting, but the magnitudes greater shooting deaths of people on the streets everyday hardly makes a dent in our collective social consciousness. We have expectations for safety and behavior at schools and in the suburbs that are far different than our expectations for safety and behavior in lower socioeconomic areas of our country.

An important insight. The story is mostly framed as Israelis versus Palestinians, meaning it's viewed only as a 0.1 percent suburb of the Middle East where Jews hold a slim majority. A more accurate framing is Israel versus much of the Arab and Iranian world. It's 7 million Jews versus 400 million in surrounding countries.

If people frame it only as a suburb of the Middle East then Israel is the much stronger party and so siding with Palestinians somehow solves the problem. A person knowledgeable about the Middle East however knows Hamas is simply a local chapter of radical Islam openly dedicated to the annihilation of Israel. Other chapters include Hezbollah in Lebanon, ISIS in Syria and Iraq, the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard in Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, ISWAP in Niger, etc.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize Israel. But as a baseline we should recognize Hamas is not a counterparty to peace alongside Israel. Peace is elusive in the Middle East because Hamas shares its goal with all the other groups mentioned above. From a strategic standpoint whether we like it or not, Israel, along with NATO and Taiwan in other parts of the world, cannot survive without America.

[dan_pdx]

No, its because "we" expect better of israel. Israel is supposed to be a paradigm of righteousness and a pillar of western democracy in the middle east. If anything it might be islamaphobia that leads to holding Israel to high standards and placing FAAAAAR lower standards on their arab and persian neighbors. Israel is much more similar to the USA culturally than any of the other places, and so their actions/tragedy's hit closer to home here.

Its not too dissimilar as to why suburban america freaks the fuck out after every school shooting, but the magnitudes greater shooting deaths of people on the streets everyday hardly makes a dent in our collective social consciousness. We have expectations for safety and behavior at schools and in the suburbs that are far different than our expectations for safety and behavior in lower socioeconomic areas of our country.

Well said, that's my take on things too. We expect Western values like not bombing civilians from Israel, but not from Yemen. It's actually pretty racist/ xenophobic when I think of it like that, but there it is. Media and protesters would be all over it if any Western country was doing this shit.

[summit]

https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts
It’s. Not. Even. Close.

Those American bases and warplanes aren’t attacking civilians. Could you be any more intentionally obtuse with this shit?

You linked to an idiotic chart showing 75 year cumulative aid numbers, which is a fucking idiotic way to look at things. The chart has South Vietnam on it. And you accuse me of being obtuse?

Are you actually unaware of what the BDS and anti-Israel protest movements are calling for or are you just being obtuse?

For those unaware, they want no investment in ANY Israeli company, no purchasing of ANY Israeli product, complete disassociation with Israeli universities and banning of Israeli acadmics from the US academic world, divestment from companies that do business with Israel, no aid for Israel, etc etc etc. They are protesting Israeli entertainers. They are calling for boycotting Israeli sports teams. They are attacking American entertainers who like Israel. Israel and supports must be pariahs (but not Hamas).

Nobody is calling for the same thing for Turkey, Saudi Arabia, nor Myanmar.

You are right... the numbers are not even close. Nearly 1 million dead, 14 million displaced, and tens of thousands of rapes between Syria, Yemen, and Myanmar.

US bases are fine though as long as we aren't doinbg the bombing? We train the Saudi attack pilots on the warplanes we provide. Nevermind our mission support. The Department of Defense administered at least $54.6 billion of military support to Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) from fiscal years 2015 through 2021.

US accepts many billions of donations from the Saudis and Qataris in US higher ed. 6 US universities have campuses in Qatar, which hosts the leaders of Hamas.

LIV Golf Tournemant baby! Saudi Golf!

Pay no attention to that. Israelis have to live up to higher standards, you see! The standard: not civilian deaths allowed.

"But Hamas set up all their bases and positions inside and underneath civilians."
"Well, too bad for Israel."

[JimmyCarter]

You linked to an idiotic chart showing 75 year cumulative aid numbers, which is a fucking idiotic way to look at things. The chart has South Vietnam on it. And you accuse me of being obtuse?

Are you actually unaware of what the BDS and anti-Israel protest movements are calling for or are you just being obtuse?

For those unaware, they want no investment in ANY Israeli company, no purchasing of ANY Israeli product, complete disassociation with Israeli universities and banning of Israeli acadmics from the US academic world, divestment from companies that do business with Israel, no aid for Israel, etc etc etc. They are protesting Israeli entertainers. They are calling for boycotting Israeli sports teams. They are attacking American entertainers who like Israel. Israel is to be a pariah state.

Why? Beacuse Jews vs Muslims.

Nobody is calling for the same thing for Turkey, Saudi Arabia, nor Myanmar.

You are right... the numbers are not even close. Nearly 1 million dead, 14 million displaced, and tens of thousands of rapes between Syria, Yemen, and Myanmar.

US bases are fine though as long as we aren't doinbg the bombing? We train the Saudi attack pilots on the warplanes we provide. We accept many billionis of donations from the Saudis and Qataris in US higher ed. 6 US universities have campuses in Qatar, which hosts the leaders of Hamas.

LIV Golf Tournemant baby! Saudi Golf!

Pay no attention to that. Israelis have to live up to higher standards, you see! The standard: Israel may not fight defensive wars against non-Jews.

Yes. No one gave a shit about it when Israel wasn’t slaughtering civilians. Now they are, people are trying to get them to stop the only way that ever actually works, which is to hit them in the wallet. HTH.

I assume you don’t actually see it, but your argument these past two pages has amounted to “no one gets upset when brown people kill brown people, why can’t we get in on just a slice of the action!!”

And you act like everything we do for the saudis isn’t sold under the pretense of keeping Israel safe.

[dan_pdx]

The standard: Israel may not fight defensive wars against non-Jews.

My problem at this point is it's very hard for me to characterize Israel's conduct as a "defensive war."

[m2711c]

Yes. No one gave a shit about it when Israel wasn’t slaughtering civilians. Now they are, people are trying to get them to stop the only way that ever actually works, which is to hit them in the wallet. HTH.

I assume you don’t actually see it, but your argument these past two pages has amounted to “no one gets upset when brown people kill brown people, why can’t we get in on just a slice of the action!!”

And you act like everything we do for the saudis isn’t sold under the pretense of keeping Israel safe.

he didn't say that so why the quotes?

[summit]

My problem at this point is it's very hard for me to characterize Israel's conduct as a "defensive war."

To examine your premise, how should Israel have prosecuted the war?
Or to put it much more fairly, as we are talking about standards on this page of the discussion, how do you think other countries would have prosecuted their response to an Oct 7?

[JimmyCarter]

he didn't say that so why the quotes?

To make it easier for the reader. I clearly stated that it wasnt a direct quote, but glad you had the MLA handbook ready

[californiagrown]

My problem at this point is it's very hard for me to characterize Israel's conduct as a "defensive war."

Hamas will keep attacking Israel in perpetuity as long as it exists in some form or another. Period. If you cut off its arms and legs, it will try to use its tongue to pull the trigger. Its like when the police try to arrest some psycho midget with a long history of violence, wielding a knife who gets tased repeatedly, beaten with a billy club, and maced repeatedly, but still. keeps. coming with the knife.

Israel is in a no win situation where as soon as they let up, Hamas will rearm, reload, and relaunch attacks. maybe not immediately but within a few months for sure. So no, this is not a fair fight at all. But what the hell do you do when knife wielding midget keeps coming at you and your family?

Its a no win situation, and 75% of the fault lies at the feet of Palestinians, 25% at the feet of Israelis. I think, that the sober amongst us, arent arguing for Israel to stop defending itself, but instead we are arguing for Israel and the IDF to be much more hardline about erring on the side of peace and civilian safety in their rules of engagement. And to have a freaking plan for after the shooting is done. And also, to allow large amounts of humanitarian aid into gaza because who the fuck cares if it also allows hamas to eat, drink and receive medical care- they seem to be culturally immune to suffering like the japanese soldiers of WWII, so why make the civilians suffer also?

[dan_pdx]

To examine your premise, how should Israel have prosecuted the war?
Or to put it much more fairly, as we are talking about standards on this page of the discussion, how do you think other countries would have prosecuted their response to an Oct 7?

I could see how my incisive commentary could be misleading, but I'm a humble orthodontist, not von Clausewitz. How would I know how to fight their war? I'm just saying that they're making it hard to believe that they're not deliberately targeting civilians and I think they should work on that.

After 9/11, US forces killed about 3,500 Afghani civilians in the 20-month period from October 2001 - June 2003. The IDF is about 10x that so far, right?

Also, given how things turned out in Afghanistan, I'd hope that Israel has a plan to sustainably improve their security going forward, not just declare victory at some point and have the Gaza strip full of people with recent rather than historical reasons for hating Israel. Again, maybe they do, Bibi hasn't called me for awhile, but it doesn't really look that way.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Maybe there is a plan after all:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...tem#1166400525

'We must settle Gaza now': Netanyahu ministers join Israelis marching to Gaza, demand Palestinians' transfer

Thousands of Israelis joined an Independence Day march on Tuesday in southern Israel, led by far-right Jewish activists advocating for resettling the Gaza Strip and facilitating the emigration of Palestinians from Gaza.

Communication Minister Shlomo Karhi, of Netanyahu's Likud party, said: "In order to preserve the security achievements that our soldiers lost their lives for, we must resettle Gaza with security forces and settlers that will embrace the land with love." He added that "this is the only true way, to make the Hamas Nazis pay a price and to defend our nation and country."

National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir also spoke at the march, and said that what the protesters are calling for is the "true solution."

"First," he said, "we must return to Gaza now! We are coming home! To the holy land! And second," he continued, "we must encourage emigration. Encourage the voluntary emigration of the residents of Gaza. It is moral!"

[summit]

I could see how my incisive commentary could be misleading, but I'm a humble orthodontist, not von Clausewitz. How would I know how to fight their war? I'm just saying that they're making it hard to believe that they're not deliberately targeting civilians and I think they should work on that.

After 9/11, US forces killed about 3,500 Afghani civilians in the 20-month period from October 2001 - June 2003. The IDF is about 10x that so far, right?

Also, given how things turned out in Afghanistan, I'd hope that Israel has a plan to sustainably improve their security going forward, not just declare victory at some point and have the Gaza strip full of people with recent rather than historical reasons for hating Israel. Again, maybe they do, Bibi hasn't called me for awhile, but it doesn't really look that way.

I see the point point you are making well, and agree that many see it that way.

I think the problem comes down to this:

It looks like Israel is running about 2:1 noncombatants:militants

That soudns horrible unless you consider combat is mostly in urban areas where Hamas has prepared the battlefield to maximize their own civilian casualties by locating their fighting positions, HQs, depots, and military infrastructure in/under dense civilian populations.

When you consider that, you can then compare it to the noncombatant to combatant casualty rates in modern battles in urban areas. In that respect, noncombatant casualties are relatively low even before considering Hamas's attempts to make them higher (and Afghanistan does not meet that standard)

I see it as:
1. Every death is tragic.
2. Israel is also doing more than almost anyone would in the situation they are facing.
3. Israel could do more.

The biggest thing to me is this: there are is no number of civilian casualties that is acceptable as retribution or "proportional response" because those concepts are either components of reestablishing deterrence (which is NOT what is happening) or it is barbarism. Unintnentional civilian casualties can only be justified if minimized and in the rational pursuit of the safety of the attacked party, and also in the peace between both parties. So, the valid criticism as others have said is: "what is the plan for peace?" The valid response is "what alternatives are there?"

This is a potential "no win situation" as california's posted above in #3882, which was a very good post.