50 years to the day

[ex-powderbroker]

The second possible solution would be for Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories and establish a Palestinian state living side by side with Israel. This would not only ensure the fair division of the land between the indigenous Palestinians and the Jewish people who have been persecuted for thousands of years. It would also guarantee both a sustainable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and an end to apartheid.



The problem as he puts it is the management of the captured territory: land theft, settler violence, checkpoints, all in defiance of international law. Which sort of makes sense as it is impossible to act in an impartial manner over these resources.

But it begs the question, since it is so easy to solve, then why have they simply not been turned over then?

https://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/03/27/mideast/

Oh that's weird, the same group that derailed the peace process now GOVERNS half the Palestinian territories (first by vote and then confirmed by civil war) and sends up thousands of rockets, kidnaps people, steals aid money to enrich themselves abroad, directed a massacre a few months ago AND took credit for how many suicide bombings (resulting in the security situation we see today with the partition wall etc) that derailed peace twenty years ago?

I personally want nothing more than to have a nice border and for two people to keep their hands and laws off of each other, establish trade and tourism, but I can certainly appreciate given the history and context that some people may be apprehensive.

The attorney you quote gives another suggestion about making it one state. I don't see how that can work after what happened in Lebanon with the civil war, and even now decades after the country is so broken they have no ability to pry a terrorist group that endangers everyone in the entire country off of the border.

Obviously we are right around the corner from an awesome solution. Right?

btw: Lebanon doesn't give Palestinians that have been there for 50 years, two generations deep, the right to become a doctor/lawyer/etc (Israel does), won't issue them passports (making travel harder than even Palestinians in the territories), they can't own land (same/same), etc. That is what actual apartheid looks like, but Edward Said is still buried there. WIsh I knew why.

[ex-powderbroker]

The second possible solution would be for Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories and establish a Palestinian state living side by side with Israel. This would not only ensure the fair division of the land between the indigenous Palestinians and the Jewish people who have been persecuted for thousands of years. It would also guarantee both a sustainable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and an end to apartheid.



The problem as he puts it is the management of the captured territory: land theft, settler violence, checkpoints, all in defiance of international law. Which sort of makes sense as it is impossible to act in an impartial manner over these resources.

But it begs the question, since it is so easy to solve, then why have they simply not been turned over then?

https://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/03/27/mideast/

Oh that's weird, the same group that derailed the peace process now GOVERNS half the Palestinian territories (first by vote and then confirmed by civil war) and sends up thousands of rockets, kidnaps people, steals aid money to enrich themselves abroad, directed a massacre a few months ago AND took credit for how many suicide bombings (resulting in the security situation we see today with the partition wall etc) that derailed peace twenty years ago?

I personally want nothing more than to have a nice border and for two people to keep their hands and laws off of each other, establish trade and tourism, but I can certainly appreciate given the history and context that some people may be apprehensive.

The attorney you quote gives another suggestion about making it one state. I don't see how that can work after what happened in Lebanon with the civil war, and even now decades after the country is so broken they have no ability to pry a terrorist group that endangers everyone in the entire country off of the border.

Obviously we are right around the corner from an awesome solution. Right?

btw: Lebanon doesn't give Palestinians that have been there for 50 years, two generations deep, the right to become a doctor/lawyer/etc (Israel does), won't issue them passports (making travel harder than even Palestinians in the territories), they can't own land (same/same), etc. That is what actual apartheid looks like, but Edward Said is still buried there. WIsh I knew why.

[MultiVerse]

Why am I getting dragged into this?

They've finally done it! They've cloned the Woolley Mammoth!

[J. Barron DeJong]

The second possible solution would be for Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories and establish a Palestinian state living side by side with Israel. This would not only ensure the fair division of the land between the indigenous Palestinians and the Jewish people who have been persecuted for thousands of years. It would also guarantee both a sustainable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and an end to apartheid.



The problem as he puts it is the management of the captured territory: land theft, settler violence, checkpoints, all in defiance of international law. Which sort of makes sense as it is impossible to act in an impartial manner over these resources.

But it begs the question, since it is so easy to solve, then why have they simply not been turned over then?

https://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/03/27/mideast/

Oh that's weird, the same group that derailed the peace process now GOVERNS half the Palestinian territories (first by vote and then confirmed by civil war) and sends up thousands of rockets, kidnaps people, steals aid money to enrich themselves abroad, directed a massacre a few months ago AND took credit for how many suicide bombings (resulting in the security situation we see today with the partition wall etc) that derailed peace twenty years ago?

I personally want nothing more than to have a nice border and for two people to keep their hands and laws off of each other, establish trade and tourism, but I can certainly appreciate given the history and context that some people may be apprehensive.

The attorney you quote gives another suggestion about making it one state. I don't see how that can work after what happened in Lebanon with the civil war, and even now decades after the country is so broken they have no ability to pry a terrorist group that endangers everyone in the entire country off of the border.

Obviously we are right around the corner from an awesome solution. Right?

btw: Lebanon doesn't give Palestinians that have been there for 50 years, two generations deep, the right to become a doctor/lawyer/etc (Israel does), won't issue them passports (making travel harder than even Palestinians in the territories), they can't own land (same/same), etc. That is what actual apartheid looks like, but Edward Said is still buried there. WIsh I knew why.

Yeah, I don’t disagree with any of that. I assume the groups making their determinations are aware of the history and current circumstances as well.

I agree that one state seems unworkable. I also agree that no solution is around the corner; I believe I said as much on the first page of this thread.

[leroy jenkins]

I don’t really care if the word apartheid is used, and am in no way in a position to make that determination. However, I’d note that many human rights groups do use that word, including groups within Israel. And when Amnesty International said it was apartheid, the former attorney general of Israel agreed:

Attachment 493510

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/isr...78541-Feb2022/

I’m aware than many people, including many Israelis, and many Jews would strongly disagree.

Wiki has links to many of the investigations and reports about the issue:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid

TGR posters who rabidly support israel no matter what because they just happen to be jewish would disagree.

[MultiVerse]

In recent years Amnesty International has been plagued by scandals, corruption, pay-for-play, spreading known false testimony, and stolen money from donors to cover up internal scandals and workplace harassment. They stripped Putin-critic Alexei Navalny’s Prisoner of Conscience status. compared Israel to ISIS. suggested there's no need for Israel to exist as a Jewish state because Jews have a safe haven in American, had ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, and in 2022 blamed Ukraine for Russian attacks on civilians. An independent review found the Ukraine report contained numerous flaws, compelling the Canadian Amnesty branch to issue a statement noting the problems along with concluding the report contained, "insufficient context and legal analysis".

[Cisco Kid]

Semantics. Tomayto Tomahto. There are shitty things on all sides.

This is a week old. We'll see if Joe corrected his vision.

[Cono Este]

Trivia question


How many Americans were slaughtered like, like I don’t know a comparison to Oct 7th. ?


Stop making this about anything else. Hamas is a death cult. Literally, and they include their children in that.

Finish them off, get aid in sooner.


Fuck waffle joe


You guys can argue 2000 yrs of history after.

[ex-powderbroker]

it’s terrible that so many innocent people have perished but it’s half as bad as thought a few days ago.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/...killed-in-gaza

a ceasefire would be great. return all the hostages, surrender, remove the occupation, joint peace keeping and hope
for the best.

fuck hamas

[summit]

One state is not the ideal solution.
Two states is the ideal solution...

But two state can never be until there is a way to make sure that the Palestinean state is not a terrorist run, Iran proxy, death cult hell bent on attacking its Israeli neighbor on the daily with the ultimate goal of one Palestienan state.

This is why Israelis went from supporting two state to not. They'd change their minds if they saw a Palestinean partnership that aknowledged the right of Israel to exist and repudiated terrorism.

[summit]

it’s terrible that so many innocent people have perished but it’s half as bad as thought a few days ago.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/...killed-in-gaza

a ceasefire would be great. return all the hostages, surrender, remove the occupation, joint peace keeping and hope
for the best.

fuck hamas

Yes to all of this, and yes, funny thing how trusting Hamas about casualty numbers turned out to be false when it was repeatedly pointed out as suspected BS to proven BS.

I'm glad there are less dead women and children than previusly claimed. But I'm not shocked.

And credulous fucktards like Jong will keep appealing to bullshit authorities in the name of "the truth is in the middle."

Amnesty has repeatedly been criticized for corruption. I lost all respect for them after their pro-Putin handling of Russia and Ukraine.

Human Rights Watch has been notoriously and blatantly biased anti-Isreal long before this current conflict. Their executives have even used slurs. The organizations founder even publicly called them out for their anti-Isarel bias.

But fucking Jong will just gargle down their BS and use it for an appeal to authority because he still believes that the truth lies directly in the middle when one side is massively more biased and extreme in its lies.

In 1950 he would have been insisting that the USSR wasn't that bad, you have to take into account the claims of the ACP and Pravda. In the 1940 he would have been insisting that the Nazis weren't that bad, just consider to Goebbels and America First. Gotta both sides it comrade!!!

[bodywhomper]

In the recent Haaretz piece interviewing several undergrads and grad students at Columbia who are Israeli, one said “… There's no one to talk to about a two-state solution – that's become a dirty word – let alone peace." https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...ent=e79818f27c

It also came up during the interesting Ezra Klein podcast interview of Ari Shavit: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/07/o...ri-shavit.html

I know it’s not what a two-state solution would look like, but the backdrop of The City and The City by China Mielville is an interesting take and read. Apparently, there two-state solution was part of the inspiration.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Yes to all of this, and yes, funny thing how trusting Hamas about casualty numbers turned out to be false when it was repeatedly pointed out as suspected BS to proven BS.

I'm glad there are less dead women and children than previusly claimed. But I'm not shocked.

And credulous fucktards like Jong will keep appealing to bullshit authorities in the name of "the truth is in the middle."

Amnesty has repeatedly been criticized for corruption. I lost all respect for them after their pro-Putin handling of Russia and Ukraine.

Human Rights Watch has been notoriously and blatantly biased anti-Isreal long before this current conflict. Their executives have even used slurs. The organizations founder even publicly called them out for their anti-Isarel bias.

But fucking Jong will just gargle down their BS and use it for an appeal to authority because he still believes that the truth lies directly in the middle when one side is massively more biased and extreme in its lies.

In 1950 he would have been insisting that the USSR wasn't that bad, you have to take into account the claims of the ACP and Pravda. In the 1940 he would have been insisting that the Nazis weren't that bad, just consider to Goebbels and America First. Gotta both sides it comrade!!!

Uh, the new updated UN numbers are apparently from the Gaza Health Ministry, which I’ve been assured repeatedly are bullshit.

Is accepting what the IDF chief is saying ‘gargling down bullshit’?

[MultiVerse]

Jong repeatedly falls the Hamas manipulation strategy.

Semantics. Tomayto Tomahto. There are shitty things on all sides.

It's not that Hamas has little concern for Gazan civilians. It's instead that Hamas wants to promote civilian martyrdom. That is Hamas' offering to the civilians of Gaza.

The IDF took responsibility for the strike on WCK aid workers. Two senior officers were dismissed and three other disciplined. There is more to the story, however.

Typically the aid workers used other types of trucks, not Toyota pickups. That night Hamas embedded its own Toyota pickup trucks among the Toyota aid trucks and fired into the air. Hamas pickup trucks wove in and out of the aid Toyota trucks. Then the trucks entered a warehouse which obscured which vehicles might be going in and out.

The IDF tried to call the aid workers and was unable to reach them. The IDF called the WCK headquarters. The WCK headquarters tried to call its own aid workers in the field, but they did not answer. When the trucks left the warehouse, the IDF drone unit thought they were not the same vehicles instead thinking they were Hamas vehicles. The drone unit believed the order not to attack no longer applied because they were striking Hamas; despite receiving orders not to strike the trucks.

Since they started the war, all Hamas needed to do was boost civilian casualties knowing international pressure would come to the rescue as it has for the past 14 years after each time Hamas attacks Israel.

[summit]

NYT OpEd by the founder of Human Rights Watch calling them out for losing critical perspective of authoritarian ME regimes while applying a double standard to Israel.

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/20/o...n.html?_r=1&em

"The region is populated by authoritarian regimes with appalling human rights records. Yet in recent years Human Rights Watch has written far more condemnations of Israel for violations of international law than of any other country in the region."

Robert's article is from 2009 and HRW only got worse since then by recruiting political radicals with anti-Israel links for both staff and board positions.

'Robert, the founder of HRW, accused HRW of allowing repressive regimes to play a "moral equivalence game", failing to weigh evidence according to whether it was collected from an open or closed society and failing to recognize any "difference between wrongs committed in self-defense and those perpetrated intentionally.'"

That is what Jong does too... and credulous acceptance of motivated bullshit in the name of "fairness."

[J. Barron DeJong]

This is what I said on day 1 of this thread:

”The whole situation is a clusterfuck all round (are Palestinians worse? maybe! Hamas, definitely) with no hope of being resolved. One side justifies the oppression with (valid, especially today of all days) threats of attack, the other justifies their attacks to fight against being oppressed. It’s hopeless.”

Unless there’s some drastic change in the relationship between Israel and Palestine, there’s not going to be peace or security.

Israel doesn’t have a plan what comes after this war. Even if they ‘destroy Hamas’, without some major change in the governing of Gaza, terrorists will remain in control. So what’s being achieve by killing tens of thousands of people, 2/3 of whom are civilians (IDF estimate from December)?

Lashing out to kill some terrorists doesn’t make Israel safer in and of itself.

[MultiVerse]

That's hardly insightful. What we know with certainty is that Hamas wants the ability to fight without the burden of actually governing in Gaza. Hamas wants to sideline Palestinian moderates even if that means destroying much of Gaza itself. Hamas also believed October 7 would draw Hezbollah and other Iranian backed militias into the war.

So if nothing else we should recognize the fact Israel prevented Hezbollah and other Iranian militias from launching a full-scale attack on Israel, which prevented a full-scale war regional war. Despite this initial setback, Hamas still believes it started a longer and inexorable process leading to Israel’s ultimate destruction. Hamas says it will "repeat the October 7 attack, time and again, until Israel is annihilated.”

Hamas wants to hunker down in their tunnels and survive until it can emerge as the ruling party of Gaza. Hamas defines success as keeping its independent fighting force intact and surviving this phase of what it sees as long war. Israel, the United States, the Arab states along with other allies must prevent Hamas from having a hand in any post-war Palestinian government.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Oh, really?



https://x.com/marquardta/status/1790...sR_NcRK2VkCfkg

[californiagrown]

This is why location, location, location is so important in real estate. Otherwise you move in and try to kick out squatters, but landlord-tenant laws dont let you kick them out so you are forced to try and live with them and their violent methed-out lifestyles and you dont get a moment of peace for the next 75 years.

[RoooR]

How do the rights of Palestinians in Israel compare to the rights of non Muslims in most Muslim majority countries?
Some small examples:
Saudi Arabia:
Public practice of any religion other than Islam is prohibited. Non-Muslim places of worship are banned.
Conversion from Islam to another religion is considered apostasy and punishable by death.
Non-Muslims must carry special ID cards identifying their religion.
Shia Muslims face institutional discrimination in areas like employment, education, the judiciary, and religious practice.

Iran:
The constitution establishes Shia Islam as the official state religion. Laws and regulations favor Shia Muslims over non-Muslims.
Only Muslims can hold key political and military positions like President and commander of the armed forces.
Sunni Muslims, Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians face restrictions on religious practice and discrimination in employment and education. The Baha'i minority faces severe persecution.

Pakistan:
Blasphemy laws prescribe harsh punishments, including death, and are disproportionately used to target religious minorities.
Hindu temples and properties have been attacked based on false blasphemy accusations, with authorities failing to protect them.
Other examples:
In Malaysia, non-Muslims cannot proselytize to Muslims. Civil courts often cede jurisdiction to Sharia courts in cases involving Muslims.
In Egypt, Christians face legal and social discrimination. Authorities often fail to protect Coptic churches from mob attacks.
Many Muslim-majority countries have laws against apostasy and blasphemy that are used to prosecute minorities and restrict their religious freedom.

[dunfree]

If you are gonna asininely cherry pick why not include Malaysia or Indonesia? Gulf states not being beacons of human rights is not news, or much of an excuse for anything.

[summit]

Reading RoooR's post... then considering:

There are 1900 million Muslims in the world (up 20% from 2010). 57 countries are considered Muslim, 46 have Muslim majorities, and 23 have constitutions declaring Islam as the state religion.

There are a miniscule 15 million Jews in the world. 7 million live in Israel, the only country considered Jewish, which does not have an official state religion, but has a constitution guaranteeing religion freedom for all.

Literally millions of dead Muslim civilians, many tens of millions displaced, from ethnoreligious violence in Syria, Sudan, South Sudan, Lebanon, Myanmar, Yemen and more in just the past few years. Massive oppression in the Muslim world against other religions/sects, women, LGBTQ, and ethnic minorities... But no 150 page threads, no widespread Western protests, no campus paralyzing occupations targeting perceived oppressors.

Only Israel gets that reaction for <1% of the casualties. Why is that, I wonder?

[JimmyCarter]

Reading RoooR's post... then considering:

There are 1900 million Muslims in the world (up 20% from 2010). 57 countries are considered Muslim, 46 have Muslim majorities, and 23 have constitutions declaring Islam as the state religion.

There are a miniscule 15 million Jews in the world. 7 million live in Israel, the only country considered Jewish, which does not have an official state religion, but has a constitution guaranteeing religion freedom for all.

Literally millions of dead Muslim civilians, many tens of millions displaced, from ethnoreligious violence in Syria, Sudan, South Sudan, Lebanon, Myanmar, Yemen and more in just the past few years. Massive oppression in the Muslim world against other religions/sects, women, LGBTQ, and ethnic minorities... But no 150 page threads, no widespread Western protests, no campus paralyzing occupations targeting perceived oppressors.

Only Israel gets that reaction for <1% of the casualties. Why is that, I wonder?

Because we’re sponsoring the Israeli casualties?

[riser4]

We're also sponsoring Saudi casualties. And Pakistan. And Turkey. I am sure there's more. That's a good shortlist to start. We let MBS have his goons hack up a journalist for crying out loud.

[RoooR]

If you are gonna asininely cherry pick why not include Malaysia or Indonesia? Gulf states not being beacons of human rights is not news, or much of an excuse for anything.

Indonesia:
Indonesia's blasphemy law is used to prosecute and imprison individuals from minority faiths. For example, a former Muslim cleric who converted to Christianity was sentenced to 10 years in prison in 2022 for criticizing Islam on YouTube.
Worship and religious activities of Islamic minorities like Ahmadiyya and Shia, as well as other faiths like Jehovah's Witnesses and indigenous religions, face serious discrimination and sometimes criminalization.
In some parts of Indonesia, schools mandate that girls, including non-Muslims, wear Islamic headscarves/hijab. Christian and other non-Muslim students who refuse can face bullying and be prevented from attending class.
Interreligious marriage is very difficult. A 1974 law bans interfaith marriages and courts have ruled against allowing them.
Hardline Islamist groups frequently threaten and sometimes attack religious minority communities, while authorities fail to protect them.
For example, in 2020, a radical cleric incited a mob that beheaded a Salvation Army elder and his relatives and burned their church, without facing any legal consequences.

Malaysia:
The constitution defines ethnic Malays as Muslim. Ethnic Malays are not allowed to legally convert to another religion, although members of other religions may convert to Islam.
Authorities maintain an official list of 56 sects of Islam considered "deviant" and a threat to national security. Muslims who deviate from accepted Sunni principles can be detained and subjected to "rehabilitation."
Non-Muslims face difficulties in getting government permission to build houses of worship. Hardline Islamic groups frequently protest and sometimes attack Hindu temples and Christian churches.


Links:
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/202...ters/indonesia
https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/24/...discrimination
https://www.uscirf.gov/news-room/rel...edom-indonesia
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...467-923X.13145
https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore...f&subId=512951