50 years to the day

[MultiVerse]

Apartheid is just a shortcut to describe how it is in Israel. I really didn't know the definition of the word, but arabs are considered second or third class citizens in Israel.

Whether it's dementia or malice Rod keeps repeating this lie. Israeli-Arabs can vote, have representation in the Knesset and on the Israeli supreme court. They have access to education, access to healthcare, and are much better off on average economically than their peers in neighboring countries. As an example of how well the education system is working for Israeli-Arabs, 45% of new qualified doctors in Israel are Israeli-Arabs, 48% of new pharmacists are Israeli-Arabs, and 24% of nurses are Israeli-Arabs.

People too often confuse, and not just in Israel, a minority position in a democracy as enemies or oppressed when in reality they should view it as normal political disagreements or normal political competition.

[rod9301]

Today, nearly all Arab towns and cities have lower standards of living than those that are predominantly Jewish. This separation and socioeconomic disparity fuel intense debate. Some analysts argue that Israel has effectively established an unjust, segregated society. “Technically you don’t have redlining, technically you don’t have formal, Jim Crow–type segregation. In practice you do,” says Palestinian American historian Rashid Khalidi. Conversely, Arik Rudnitzky of the Israel Democracy Institute (IDI) tells CFR that terms such as “segregation,” “de facto separation,” or the more conservative “voluntary separation” reflect individual worldviews, but that there is no expert consensus on how to characterize this separation. Experts such as Nachum Blass of the Taub Center for Social Policy Studies in Israel say many in both communities prefer separation


Do they have the same rights and opportunities as other Israelis?
Israel’s declaration of independence recognizes the equality of all the country’s residents, Arabs included, but equality is not explicitly enshrined in Israel’s Basic Laws, the closest thing it has to a constitution. Some rights groups argue that dozens of laws indirectly or directly discriminate against Arabs.



Israel’s establishment as an explicitly Jewish state is a primary point of contention, with many of the state’s critics arguing that this by nature casts non-Jews as second-class citizens with fewer rights.


The 1950 Law of Return, for example, grants all Jews, as well as their children, grandchildren, and spouses, the right to move to Israel and automatically gain citizenship. Non-Jews do not have these rights. Palestinians and their descendants have no legal right to return to the lands their families held before being displaced in 1948 or 1967.

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[MultiVerse]

The parts Rod leaves out is "Despite a long history of mistrust rooted in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Israel’s Arab and Jewish citizens work and live together peaceably in many areas. "

So there's intense debate, just as there is in every other country, about socioeconomic disparity and economic inequality among minorities, but Arab-Israeli have the same legal rights as Jewish Israelis even though they tend to live in poorer cities, have less formal education, and face other challenges. In 2021, the Israeli government passed a $9 billion, five-year plan to boost employment, improve health-care services and housing, and develop infrastructure, etc., to help improve the Israeli Arab sector.

The main thing is there's no legal separation. Critics argue there's de facto separation between groups, "but that there is no expert consensus on how to characterize this separation." The fact is Arab-Israelis can and are increasingly moving to Jewish areas to improve their standards of living, as well as to work and attend school. That's obviously not apartheid.

[Core Shot]

^^^
If you’re not in the tribe you’re not in the tribe.

No getting around that.

If your mom wasn’t in the tribe then I guess you’re fucked. Maternal shit and such

[MultiVerse]

Another misconception too often repeated in this thread. Orthodox Judaism practices matrilineal descent whereas most Western ethnicities who care about that sort of thing practice patrilineal descent. Otherwise just about anyone can convert to Judaism if they want. Jews are incredibly racially, ethnically and culturally diverse.

Even matrilineal descent is nothing out the ordinary when it comes to human culture. The main difference is one practices inheritance through female lineage while the other practices inheritance through male lineage. Patrilineal systems (the system most Westerners are familiar with) and matrilineal systems are mirror opposites of one another but they function in virtually identical ways, it just depends on whether or not you’re a male or a female when comes to passing on your lineage.

Most of us in America trace our lineage through the male line. Whereas a lot of Native American groups are matrilineal, for example. The Navajo are a classic example of a matrilineal society. It's fairly common globally. It begs the question for our own society where we want to have greater female power, men have to give up some power and we have to recognize cultures vary in a lot of interesting ways.

[Cisco Kid]

The Israelites don't treat Palestinians any worse than Americans treat blacks. Legally

[summit]

The Israelites

What fucking millennia do you live in?

[MultiVerse]

The per-captia income in Israel is US $55K PPP versus $40K PPP for an Arab-Israeli. People can argue it should be more equal. But compare Arab-Israeli $40K with Russia at $35K, or Egypt at $14K, Iran $18K, Jordan $11K, Syria $6K and most of the talking points here fall on their face.

Just once, it would be nice if people recognize progress instead of basing all their beliefs back when their political identities were formed in their youth and then arguing as if nothing ever improves.

[Cisco Kid]

I'm living in reality. Try it

[summit]

I'm living in reality. Try it

Give it up for CK, a true comedian!

[MultiVerse]

lol, TGR's Woolly Mammoth can still remember when this happened “Uh hello, planes? It’s blimps. You win.”

[summit]

Indeed. The Israelites were in Egypt when the last of the Wooly Mammoth were dying. And there was no such thing as a Palestinian in the modern sense. The Israelites left Egypt and (re)arrived in Israel in the 1200sBC while the Arabs tribes from which the Palestinians were later derived arrived in the 630s AD after the death of Muhammed.

Not that this means anything to the current peace/war who is right and wrong, unless you are making bullshit "colonial" arguments.

Nobody uses "Israelite" to refer to modern peoples. Nobody uses "Ishmaelite" either.

It just shows Cisco Kid ignorantly uses anachronistic terms for the groups he purports to know about with the same lack of understanding as Rod when it comes to the meaning of apartheid (at least from the quoted posts as that fucktard has been on ignore since his Putin dicksucking reached epic proportions in 2022).

[Core Shot]

Desmond Dekker.
Fkna

PS. Thx MV didn’t know that much about reformed vs orthodox and lineage.

[ex-powderbroker]

Israelites were a tribe thousands of years ago.

The people of Israel encompass Jews, Christians, Muslim, and Druze. Almost a quarter of the population is Arab. Israelis have the same passport, rights, unfettered access to all land in Israel. I understand that reality is complicated and have posted about the unfairness of the people living under occupation. But Israeli Arabs are not subject to a two tiered legal or educational system like jim crow:


Palestinian Israeli graduates from stamford thanks israel for the opportunity:

https://vision.org.au/news/israeli-a...ds-her-nation/

Arab israelis make up half the med school applicants in israel

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...f-e3affb230000

In other news, Arab israelis and left wing jews protest the war together:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-ar...ceasefire/amp/

mixed towns becoming more common

https://thehill.com/opinion/internat...e-by-side/amp/

arab israelis more likely to see themselves as israeli palestinian

https://twitter.com/nasdaily/status/...raeli-first%2F

gay arab israeli proud to serve

https://aish.com/mohammad-zoabi-a-brave-arab-israeli/


using the language of propaganda to demonize either side will only push people farther away. there is no apartheid or genocide. there is an awful occupation (and very probably what i would call collective punishment) that denies people’s rights born under occupation to self determination and governance (with the help of their own awful leaders).

incitements to violence, a lack of understanding, and the dehumanization of Israel imo will not bring peace and only keeps the benefactors of the conflict in power.

If you want to look at where Palestinians are truly treated as second class citizens, look no farther than Lebanon where they are eligible for no passport, can’t be doctors, lawyers, cops, own property etc. They are of course not alone there.

I wish I knew how to bring people together on this, it seems impossible. Checkpoints have to go and be replaced by borders. Military tribunals with courts of peers, etc. A lot has to happen to make that possible, not just the family’s of terrorists getting paid out to the tune of 30k if someone murders an Israel.

Unfortunately the SJP talk from the sympathetic types here and countering it just helps Bibi. The Bibi war cabinet and its sentiments only helps Hamas.

Let’s get this guy elected and figure out who can represent a different path to the crooked PA or violent fascists at Hamas so they start to make a real country.

https://twitter.com/KarivGilad/statu...97768746328388

And I hope we can do this before throwing our own first amendment in the garbage with unnecessary laws like this:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/antisemit...153021248.html

let’s figure out an acceptable end to this groundhog day nightmare already for everyone.

[Cisco Kid]

Notice all the love for DEI lately?

[LeeLau]

I can see we'll have to agree to disagree Rod. You seem to be drawn to socio economic inequality. And from that conclude that "apartheid" is the causal factor.

It's the same playbook Amnesty International has used (along with cherry picking facts, laws and sloppy analysis).

[summit]

I'm just waiting for CK to refer to a modern Native American group as "Paleo-Siberian" or something similarly anachronistic.

[Cisco Kid]

Reservation life is The Bomb. So I hear.

[rod9301]

Ok, we don't have to use the word apartheid.

But no matter how well the Arab brothers are treated by their neighbor Israel Jews, the issue is still the idiotic war in Gaza that will create another generation of Hamas recruits and will not accomplish anything at all.

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[MultiVerse]

Reservation life is The Bomb. So I hear.

A lot of that is because we condescendingly don't allow First Nations people to assert sovereignty over reservation property rights. Tribal nations with more autonomy do better than tribal nations who face more restrictions and control.

In Vancouver, for example, a high-rise/mixed-use development on indigenous reservation land -driven by said indigenous tribes is receiving a lot of criticism. Some people expected the tribe to reverse & rewind the land to a pastoral state. Instead the tribe chose to develop the land. Good for housing. Good for the tribe. Bad for old timey beliefs.

“What chafes critics, even those who might consider themselves progressive, is that they expect reconciliation to instead look like a kind of reversal, rewinding the tape of history to some museum-diorama past.”

https://macleans.ca/society/senakw-vancouver

[ex-powderbroker]

Ok, we don't have to use the word apartheid.

But no matter how well the Arab brothers are treated by their neighbor Israel Jews, the issue is still the idiotic war in Gaza that will create another generation of Hamas recruits and will not accomplish anything at all.

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Sincere thanks for not using charged language, and i partially agree.

In agreement,for instance, look at hamas militants popping up in the north ready to fight again. of course this will happen in rafah after many civilian casualties. some people conclude that hamas needs to be disarmed and will make that choice knowingly but until there is a political solution though, round and round we will go.

where i disagree is sort of similar to the situation in ukraine. russian conscripts are shocked by the quality of life in the west the same way many poor arabs who marched over the border were while looting their arab cousins homes on 10/7 to take back cars, bikes, etc (probably blown up now).

Palestinians have received more aid per person than any group, where has the money gone? certainly not to opportunity. at some point they’ll have to ask those questions too, not just about what Israel has done to immiserate them.

[LeeLau]

Ok, we don't have to use the word apartheid.

But no matter how well the Arab brothers are treated by their neighbor Israel Jews, the issue is still the idiotic war in Gaza that will create another generation of Hamas recruits and will not accomplish anything at all.

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Rod . To be clear it's not like "apartheid" or "genocide" is some sort of trigger word.

It's more like that these are really bad things. And when well- meaning people broaden the use of this word in an attempt to make a situation (any situation but let's call it Gaza) fit their preconceived worldview then it cheapens and demeans the word.

[summit]

Iranian lawmaker claims they have nukes, but he might not be credible.

To be clear it's not like "apartheid" or "genocide" is some sort of trigger word.

I must disagree. To the Jews, those absolutely are trigger words as they have repeatedly been subject to both genocide and apartheid throughout their history, including recently, and are the target of repeat calls for genocide from Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran. The term "genocide" was literally coined to describe what the Nazis perpetrated.

Using those words inaccurately to describe Jewish-majority Israel are absolutely calculated "flipping the script" terms in InfoOp strategies meant to trigger and insult, as well as cheapen the terms. It is also meant to rally and rile up hatred against Israel and Jews. It is a form of antisemitism. Remember the Iranians, Hamas, and their proxy elements and movements see no difference between Jews and Israel.

Listening to that kind of propaganda filtered through weaponized social media and extreme left media fronting for these InfoOps, that is how you end up with otherwise very reasonable and intelligent, but on this subject misled and uninformed, liberals asking their one-Jewish-friend "how can you stand YOUR PEOPLE committing genocide?" I literally heard someone very smart with a doctorate degree start a conversation this way with her friend who was a cultural Jewish American.

Those terms are so charged and extreme that simply using them elicits a feeling of reinforcing truthiness in the user. It has taken what, 150 pages to get Ron to agree apartheid is not the right term... and there are other posters who probably are still going to use it.

[J. Barron DeJong]

I don’t really care if the word apartheid is used, and am in no way in a position to make that determination. However, I’d note that many human rights groups do use that word, including groups within Israel. And when Amnesty International said it was apartheid, the former attorney general of Israel agreed:



https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/isr...78541-Feb2022/

I’m aware than many people, including many Israelis, and many Jews would strongly disagree.

Wiki has links to many of the investigations and reports about the issue:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid

[Woolly the Mammoth]

lol, TGR's Woolly Mammoth can still remember when this happened “Uh hello, planes? It’s blimps. You win.”

Why am I getting dragged into this?