50 years to the day

[summit]

Hamas doesn't want peace. They want death and power.
And Netanyahu is an ass and needs to go.

And if you think that Al Jazeera, a state controlled media mouthpiece of Qatar, an authoritarian Islamist monarchy, which hosts Hamas and sponsors Wahabiist Islamism across the ME and the world, is some respectable unbiased media agency that is comparable to US mainstream media, then you are needing to educate yourself and gain perspective.

This is the equivelent of Ukraine banning Russia propoganda via Belarussian media.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Hamas doesn't want peace. They want death.
And Netanyahu is an ass.

Yeah, I’ve said as much myself repeatedly in here but it doesn’t my seem to get through.

But, in my opinion, a negotiated peace for the time being - if it actually happens - is better than more large scale death for the foreseeable future.

[summit]

Yeah, I’ve said as much myself repeatedly in here but it doesn’t my seem to get through.

But, in my opinion, a negotiated peace for the time being - if it actually happens - is better than more large scale death for the foreseeable future.

To what end? What do you think a negotiated peace does other than buy Hamas time to regroup, rearm, launch rockets, and prepare Gaza in a way that will have even worse casualties for Gazans once they trigger the next war with another Oct 7 scale operation even if different in type leading to an even more forceful Israeli response?

Hamas has learned what works. Take hostages, maximize Israeli civilian casualties, ensure Israel cannot avoid huge Gazan casualties when they reply. The only way to avoid the repeats is to knock out Hamas. Or Iran.

Hamas has publicly and repeatedly promised more Oct 7s as soon and as often as possible. How the fuck do you expect Israel to make peace with that?

[MultiVerse]

Armchair genius says ‘There should be peace’, as though this has never occurred to Israelis or Palestinians, as if it's some fantastically original insight. The cycle of violence ends with either political or military defeat of Hamas. Allowing Hamas to prepare to fight another war in the future means more endless war in the future.

[riser4]

Hamas doesn't want peace. They want death and power.
And Netanyahu is an ass and needs to go.

Very much in agreement. Netanyahu needs this war as much as Hamas does. Without it, they both lose relevancy and therefore power.

And if you think that Al Jazeera, a state controlled media mouthpiece of Qatar, an authoritarian Islamist monarchy, which hosts Hamas and sponsors Wahabiist Islamism across the ME and the world, is some respectable unbiased media agency that is comparable to US mainstream media, then you are needing to educate yourself and gain perspective.

This is the equivelent of Ukraine banning Russia propoganda via Belarussian media.

The optics are bad to everyone that is not Jewish. And it leaves a lane for arguably far worse sources of information. That's my point.

[summit]

^I can agree with those points

[summit]

Hamas can offer Israel only two things. Hostages and Peace. They are offering neither.

[J. Barron DeJong]

To what end? What do you think a negotiated peace does other than buy Hamas time to regroup, rearm, launch rockets, and prepare Gaza in a way that will have even worse casualties for Gazans once they trigger the next war with another Oct 7 scale operation even if different in type leading to an even more forceful Israeli response?

Hamas has learned what works. Take hostages, maximize Israeli civilian casualties, ensure Israel cannot avoid huge Gazan casualties when they reply. The only way to avoid the repeats is to knock out Hamas. Or Iran.

Hamas has publicly and repeatedly promised more Oct 7s as soon and as often as possible. How the fuck do you expect Israel to make peace with that?

To what end? I’d ask the same about continuing the current war.

Are any of Israel’s allies advocating for them to continue this offensive and not settle for a negotiated ceasefire?

[MultiVerse]

The majority of Hamas's military arm has been eliminated. Only about 20% of the Hamas military organization still exists. The majority of rocket attacks are stopped. The Hamas invasion threat is dealt with. A security zone has been established. Beyond going after the remaining Hamas battalions in
Rafah, the stated Netanyahu government's goal of truly eliminating Hamas is unrealistic and unachievable without Palestinian support.

[highangle]

You’re trying to hard here. Where exactly do you live? I live in rural eastern WA and racism and homophobia are alive and well. Sure it’s better than 20, 30 or 40 years ago but if you don’t see any bias of these kinds your head is in the sand.

You sound like you’re trying to channel Tucker Carlson

Leroy is a paraphrase of originality.

[highangle]

The majority of Hamas's military arm has been eliminated. Only about 20% of the Hamas military organization still exists. The majority of rocket attacks are stopped. The Hamas invasion threat is dealt with. A security zone has been established. Beyond going after the remaining Hamas battalions in
Rafah, the stated Netanyahu government's goal of truly eliminating Hamas is unrealistic and unachievable without Palestinian support.

Seems like any sort of peace will need Palestinian popular support, or it's only a matter of time before the next cruise ship hijacking.

[MultiVerse]

Yeah. It wasn't always like this. There was a time before the first intifada when Palestinians and Israelis traveled freely & safely among themselves. You wouldn't call it peace per se but a Palestinian or an Israeli family could get lost, take a wrong turn, before all the checkpoints, and safely ask for directions in a Palestinian or a Jewish neighborhood.

[summit]

The majority of Hamas's military arm has been eliminated. Only about 20% of the Hamas military organization still exists. The majority of rocket attacks are stopped. The Hamas invasion threat is dealt with. A security zone has been established. Beyond going after the remaining Hamas battalions in
Rafah, the stated Netanyahu government's goal of truly eliminating Hamas is unrealistic and unachievable without Palestinian support.

Sounds like a great reason to go into Rafah and then move on to peace negoations?

[MultiVerse]

Flip it around. The question people should pose to themselves is whether Israel should withdraw under international pressures like they did so many times in the past leaving Hamas to reconstitute, so that we're having this discussion again in the next few years, or try and eliminate Hamas as a military threat?

It's a grim trolley problem but without knowing the toll on either track. Avoid more Palestinian deaths today at the expense of even more Palestinian deaths and even more endless rounds of violence tomorrow.

[JimmyCarter]

Flip it around. The question people should pose to themselves is whether Israel should withdraw under international pressures like they did so many times in the past leaving Hamas to reconstitute, so that we're having this discussion again in the next few years, or try and eliminate Hamas as a military threat?

It's a grim trolley problem but without knowing the toll on either track. Avoid more Palestinian deaths today at the expense of even more Palestinian deaths and even more endless rounds of violence tomorrow.

Ok don’t allow Hamas to reconstitute.
Does that actually change anything long term?

[MultiVerse]

Gaza becoming more like the West Bank is one possibility. In 2005 Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and in 2006 elected a pro-withdrawal government for the West Bank. Unfortunately, instead of choosing peace Hamas presented it to Palestinians as a military victory (the same thing happened earlier when Israel withdrew from Southern Lebanon) and chose war instead. So there's a continuum of possibilities along full Palestinian self-governance and full Israeli military occupation.

[highangle]

Ok don’t allow Hamas to reconstitute.
Does that actually change anything long term?

Why yes it does @JimmyCarter: it short-dicks Greater Persia muchly.

[highangle]

And curtails teh "gEnOcIdE"

[highangle]

And gives Israel a couple weeks to #rm Netanyahu

[JimmyCarter]

Gaza becoming more like the West Bank is one possibility. In 2005 Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and in 2006 elected a pro-withdrawal government for the West Bank. Unfortunately, instead of choosing peace Hamas presented it to Palestinians as a military victory (the same thing happened earlier when Israel withdrew from Southern Lebanon) and chose war instead. So there's a continuum of possibilities along full Palestinian self-governance and full Israeli military occupation.

West Bank situation might be best case but it’s a pretty terrible bellweather at the moment.

[MakersTeleMark]

I can't see Israel agreeing to any ceasefire until they fully control Rafah.

[Core Shot]

Nut and yahoo is an ass.

Rafa. Fuck. Going all in.

End result? My prediction? Half of Gaza emigrates. What’s left tries to survive under IDF occupation.
With more hotels and beachfront condos. It’s the new Boca.

[summit]

My prediction? Half of Gaza emigrates.

Why don't you list the countries that will accept more than a handful of Gazan refugees?

I'll wait...

[Cono Este]

Just just checking in, wanted to say, with Americans still being held hostage, what a fuckimg disgrace so many of you are.

So far, Israel has the only plan for any of them to see the light of day again, dead or alive.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Just just checking in, wanted to say, with Americans still being held hostage, what a fuckimg disgrace so many of you are.

So far, Israel has the only plan for any of them to see the light of day again, dead or alive.

I’m sorry, but does it seem to you like Netanyahu’s primary concern has been the safe release of hostages?

Have you happened to notice that many of the hostage’s family members have been vocally calling for a ceasefire?

Example: https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-800146

Of course, Hamas is evil as always and there are reports that in the deal they were willing to sign, they wouldn’t agree that the first 33 hostages to be released would all be alive.