Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

[XtrPickels]

Really? How interesting. I had have always noticed my energy (and mood) seem to swing pretty drastically in relation to how recently I’ve had carbs. I figured I was very carb dependent and yesterday I had started regulating when I had carbs (no carbs after dinner or before lunch), nothing drastic but a starting point to try and slowly “teach” my body to burn fats. Seems like I may be wasting my time


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think we have to understand that this information is in the context of performance and not health.
When you're active, crush carbohydrate.
All other times, eat a balanced - healthy diet.

Deeper Dive
1. While carbohydrate supplementation leads to markedly improved performance across essentially all durations and workloads it will be especially apparent at performances at FTP (Functional Threshold Power) and Above. This is because the body is fueling activity almost exclusively with carbohydrate at these workloads. "Fat-Adapted" individuals can typically produce more power at these workloads once they run out of carbohydrate as compared to when they were not fat adapted, however those numbers are still less than if they were carbohydrate fed.

2. Laboratory results of shorter-duration performances will over-report performance improvements (IMO) compared to real-world endurance performance.

3. Even Inigo believes that you do not need to be walking around with full glycogen stores all the time during training. We all need to spend some time depleted and this (IMO) becomes more important for athletes involved in longer duration (4+ hours) events and adventures.

4. As much as we need to practice some time being depleted we also need to practice consuming a $h1t-ton of carbohydrates to fuel our best performance. Most people can handle 60g/hour. It typically takes practices and a decent volume of fluid to get to 90g/hr and 120g/hr is the generally accepted upper-limit for most athlets... although some have certain gone higher.

5. If you want to go fast, you should be consuming carbs starting 30 minutes and lasting the duration of your event. The longer or harder the event, the more carbs you need.

[PeachesNCream]

I think we have to understand that this information is in the context of performance and not health.
When you're active, crush carbohydrate.
All other times, eat a balanced - healthy diet.

Deeper Dive
1. While carbohydrate supplementation leads to markedly improved performance across essentially all durations and workloads it will be especially apparent at performances at FTP (Functional Threshold Power) and Above. This is because the body is fueling activity almost exclusively with carbohydrate at these workloads. "Fat-Adapted" individuals can typically produce more power at these workloads once they run out of carbohydrate as compared to when they were not fat adapted, however those numbers are still less than if they were carbohydrate fed.

2. Laboratory results of shorter-duration performances will over-report performance improvements (IMO) compared to real-world endurance performance.

3. Even Inigo believes that you do not need to be walking around with full glycogen stores all the time during training. We all need to spend some time depleted and this (IMO) becomes more important for athletes involved in longer duration (4+ hours) events and adventures.

4. As much as we need to practice some time being depleted we also need to practice consuming a $h1t-ton of carbohydrates to fuel our best performance. Most people can handle 60g/hour. It typically takes practices and a decent volume of fluid to get to 90g/hr and 120g/hr is the generally accepted upper-limit for most athlets... although some have certain gone higher.

5. If you want to go fast, you should be consuming carbs starting 30 minutes and lasting the duration of your event. The longer or harder the event, the more carbs you need.

Thanks for typing that out. Giving that a save and you just sold me on your podcast. I’m not a biker but training for my first ultra, I’m sure most of the fitness stuff overlaps. Are you still using table sugar as your go-to carb? I’m using tailwind but I don’t think I’ll buy another bag. I like it, just seems overpriced


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[smmokan]

^^^ Check out bulk maltodextrin too... I've been using that combined with a partial scoop of Skratch (which I get on pro-deal), and it's great. Super easy to drink too.

[climberevan]

Table sugar FTW. We've discussed this in a lot of detail in this thread.

[PeachesNCream]

Great. Table sugar it is. Have the different types of table sugar been discussed in terms of how processed they are? I try and stay away from processed foods, I don’t think table sugar is that processed but forms like Panela, sucanat, etc. are less processed versions. Do these less processed forms of table sugar have an effect on the uptake? Or the ability to be absorbed in water?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dantheman]

You want the white ultraprocessed stuff. It's the cheapest and does exactly what you need.

[Skistack]

I’m using a 50/50 mix of maltodextrin and plain sugar. 3 to 1 glucose/ fructose ratio and not too sweet.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[XtrPickels]

Thanks for typing that out. Giving that a save and you just sold me on your podcast. I’m not a biker but training for my first ultra, I’m sure most of the fitness stuff overlaps. Are you still using table sugar as your go-to carb? I’m using tailwind but I don’t think I’ll buy another bag. I like it, just seems overpriced


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When I'm "training" I change my ratio based on the grams per hour.

Up to 60g - Straight Maltodextrin
up to 90g/hr- 2:1 Malto to Fructose
Up to 120g/hr: 1:1 Glucose to Fructose = table sugar.

When I'm just messing around and going for the occasional longer ride I typically just use Flow Formula.

[VTskibum]

I think we have to understand that this information is in the context of performance and not health.
When you're active, crush carbohydrate.
All other times, eat a balanced - healthy diet.

Deeper Dive
1. While carbohydrate supplementation leads to markedly improved performance across essentially all durations and workloads it will be especially apparent at performances at FTP (Functional Threshold Power) and Above. This is because the body is fueling activity almost exclusively with carbohydrate at these workloads. "Fat-Adapted" individuals can typically produce more power at these workloads once they run out of carbohydrate as compared to when they were not fat adapted, however those numbers are still less than if they were carbohydrate fed.

2. Laboratory results of shorter-duration performances will over-report performance improvements (IMO) compared to real-world endurance performance.

3. Even Inigo believes that you do not need to be walking around with full glycogen stores all the time during training. We all need to spend some time depleted and this (IMO) becomes more important for athletes involved in longer duration (4+ hours) events and adventures.

4. As much as we need to practice some time being depleted we also need to practice consuming a $h1t-ton of carbohydrates to fuel our best performance. Most people can handle 60g/hour. It typically takes practices and a decent volume of fluid to get to 90g/hr and 120g/hr is the generally accepted upper-limit for most athlets... although some have certain gone higher.

5. If you want to go fast, you should be consuming carbs starting 30 minutes and lasting the duration of your event. The longer or harder the event, the more carbs you need.

Curious your thoughts on olympic XC races around this topic? Being topped off absolutely imagine they are, but I wonder if WC XC they're actually getting that much in during the 90 min race? I had read somewhere that while even consuming gel or two + whatever in the bottle, it's more phycological/full feeling given how hard those efforts are and it wasn't really actually doing anything to replenish during the race.

[bean]

Up to 60g - Straight Maltodextrin
up to 90g/hr- 2:1 Malto to Fructose
Up to 120g/hr: 1:1 Glucose to Fructose = table sugar.

So your plan is 60g per hour of glucose, and any more is fructose? Is that personal-experience based or from research?

I don’t think I’ve ever gone that high on sugar intake, just sounds unappealing and I have a hard time getting past 90ish…of course last time I tried was at triple bypass so elevation could have something to do with it.

[XtrPickels]

Curious your thoughts on olympic XC races around this topic? Being topped off absolutely imagine they are, but I wonder if WC XC they're actually getting that much in during the 90 min race? I had read somewhere that while even consuming gel or two + whatever in the bottle, it's more phycological/full feeling given how hard those efforts are and it wasn't really actually doing anything to replenish during the race.

Evidence is pretty strong that in events lasting more than an hour CHO supplementation is beneficial. Even if they're getting in 60g / hr from a combo of drink + gels / blocks it will be worthwhile.

In cyclocross this last 1-2 years you've been seeing more riders - especially female - taking gels mid-race. (50 min to 1 hour total race time)

[XtrPickels]

So your plan is 60g per hour of glucose, and any more is fructose? Is that personal-experience based or from research?

I don’t think I’ve ever gone that high on sugar intake, just sounds unappealing and I have a hard time getting past 90ish…of course last time I tried was at triple bypass so elevation could have something to do with it.

It *seems* that fructose transport via GLUT 5 from the gut is best when the main glucose transporter (SGLT1) is fully saturated (based on research from Asker Jeukendrup if I remember). This seems to happen around 60g/hr (which is why that was the recommendation).

Taking straight fructose - and trying to fire up only GLUT 5 - doesn't seem to work well which is why for a long time the recommendation was to only use glucose / maltodextrin.

Short Timeline of thinking
1. Only consume glucose because fructose gives you gut rot
2. Hey look we can take in up to 60g of glucose per hour
3. Holy , if I take 60g of Glucose per hour... it seems like I can also take 30g of fructose!
4. Hold my beer boys... I'm going 60g glucose + 60g fructose!

[XtrPickels]

It *seems* that fructose transport via GLUT 5 from the gut is best when the main glucose transporter (SGLT1) is fully saturated (based on research from Asker Jeukendrup if I remember). This seems to happen around 60g/hr (which is why that was the recommendation).

Taking straight fructose - and trying to fire up only GLUT 5 - doesn't seem to work well which is why for a long time the recommendation was to only use glucose / maltodextrin.

Short Timeline of thinking
1. Only consume glucose because fructose gives you gut rot
2. Hey look we can take in up to 60g of glucose per hour
3. Holy , if I take 60g of Glucose per hour... it seems like I can also take 30g of fructose!
4. Hold my beer boys... I'm going 60g glucose + 60g fructose!

Here is some info from Asker on the topic:
https://www.mysportscience.com/post/...s-and-benefits

[bean]

Amazing how so many counterintuitive things come up in physiology.

[bennymac]

For a recreational level mag who does 1 to 2 competitive events per year each lasting 4-5 hours can I just take in 1 off the shelf gel per 30 minutes for the duration of the event (along with water) and be 95% of the way there (rather than fussing around with ratios and mixes or buying the expensive gels)?

[bean]

For a recreational level mag who does 1 to 2 competitive events per year each lasting 4-5 hours can I just take in 1 off the shelf gel per 30 minutes for the duration of the event (along with water) and be 95% of the way there (rather than fussing around with ratios and mixes or buying the expensive gels)?

Make it 20-25 minutes but yeah good enough if you’re just riding to see how you do and have fun.

[bennymac]

^thanks

Another noob training question:

If I want to train so that I can go up climbs (that will take me in the range of 30min to 60min to go up) at a certain speed (call that X) - and currently I can’t do those climbs at that speed - should my approach be to find a shorter climb say 2 to 10 minutes in length (and of a similar grade) and do intervals once or twice a week on that hill at speed X?

[fool]

For a recreational level mag who does 1 to 2 competitive events per year each lasting 4-5 hours can I just take in 1 off the shelf gel per 30 minutes for the duration of the event (along with water) and be 95% of the way there (rather than fussing around with ratios and mixes or buying the expensive gels)?

If you're not ultra-concerned with performance, the ratios/mixes don't have to perfect/complicated. If you want to go simple, combine white sugar with salt/electrolytes (pedialtye packets work decent for simplicity and a little flavor). If you're a sweater, in a dry or super humid climate, etc., you'll likely want to adjust the electrolyte consumption.

[fool]

Great. Table sugar it is. Have the different types of table sugar been discussed in terms of how processed they are? I try and stay away from processed foods, I don’t think table sugar is that processed but forms like Panela, sucanat, etc. are less processed versions. Do these less processed forms of table sugar have an effect on the uptake? Or the ability to be absorbed in water?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pickels covered a lot of it here and there's more context earlier in the thread.

[fool]

Anyone using baking soda for performance? Ran across it a few times and haven't seen a discussion here. It looks like it can be finicky with the stomach and Maurten has created something for deliviring it more easily (Outside) Training Peaks also has a short article.

Pubmed: The Impact of Sodium Bicarbonate on Performance in Response to Exercise Duration in Athletes: A Systematic Review

Seventeen of these studies reported performance enhancing effects after supplementing NaHCO3. Eleven of twenty studies with exercise duration of ? 4 minutes showed positive and four diverse results after supplementing NaHCO3. On the other hand six of fifteen studies with an exercise duration of >4 minutes showed performance enhancing and two studies showed diverse results. Consequently, the duration of exercise might be influential for inducing a performance enhancing effect when supplementing NaHCO3, but to which extent, remains unclear due to the inconsistencies in the study results.

[XtrPickels]

Anyone using baking soda for performance? Ran across it a few times and haven't seen a discussion here. It looks like it can be finicky with the stomach and Maurten has created something for deliviring it more easily (Outside) Training Peaks also has a short article.

Pubmed: The Impact of Sodium Bicarbonate on Performance in Response to Exercise Duration in Athletes: A Systematic Review

I did when I was in college and a competitive 400m hurdler. It's really tough to do well from a logistics / GI issue standpoint, but at least in events like that, it worked incredibly well.

I have the Maurten Bicarb, but have not used it. I know some people who seem to see benefits, at least in CX. Not sure if they're using it in gravel. I can hypothesize that it may be beneficial in longer duration events with variable workloads - e.g. Mountain biking or a hilly gravel route. It's likely less effective during long, monotonous, sustained workloads that rarely breach threshold.

My take is that it's likely not worth it unless podiums matter a lot .

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

Anyone ever use Spring Energy?

Sounds like their "Awesome Sauce" with a claimed 45g/carbs actually only contains 16g/carbs. Pretty wild. Score one for Reddit scientists as this started there a few months back, but appears to be mostly confirmed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultramarath...rbs_confirmed/

[climberevan]

Wow. At least I know when I measure out 80g of table sugar and put it into a bottle, I'm getting 80g. What a debacle for Spring.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

That seems like a lot of work. Now I just spend $21 for 5 Awesome Sauce packs to get that same 80g. For my next century, 25 of those bad boys should fit just perfectly in my jersey.

Seriously though - seems like a total debacle. I had just assumed nutrition labels on sports nutrition had regulation on them. Guess not.

[Dantheman]

That's nuts. The very idea of whole food gels is just completely stupid at its very core. People need to get over the idea of "clean" eating for active fueling. Yes, eat healthy stuff the rest of the time, but mid-run/ride processed carbs are not going to hurt you.